The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion

[GhostWriter16]

This is just as utterly pathetic and disgusting, as you're still wanting to punish women for exercising bodily autonomy.

In short, your views on it are still terrible and punish women in general (as well as being abhorrent and bigoted)

As I said, I changed my mind based on my own convictions, hardly because of the cries of "Bigot."

I'm done arguing with people like that. At least Truronian and El Mac are explaining why they disagree with my position and putting forward a little effort in doing so.

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

In cases where the mother's life is in danger, I can see this. Otherwise, bring the baby to term and give it up for adoption.

This isn't about being pro or anti women, its about being pro-life.

I still don't believe in the choice of what I consider murder. Sorry if you don't like that.

Yeah, that ain't gonna happen....

Spoiler :

The opposite, on the other hand....

I know you don't like me, but are you being serious here or are you just trying to make a joke?

I don't claim to be a particularly good person, but God has blessed me anyway, not through any merit of my own. You may well have more merit than me as a human being, but that has nothing to do with it.

 

[Truronian]

So I would say I've changed my position. The ideal sentence is life imprisonment, not death.

Well, that's a start...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

In cases where the mother's life is in danger, I can see this. Otherwise, bring the baby to term and give it up for adoption.

This isn't about being pro or anti women, its about being pro-life.

I still don't believe in the choice of what I consider murder. Sorry if you don't like that.

Pro-life, huh. I bet if you had a chance to ask Hitler he would tell you he is pro-life too. In his case he saw supremacy of Aryan race as something very pro-life. Sorry for the comparison but you must understand that if one person defines some dogma even thought it may be done with best intentions and sincererity there is still great chance it may be utterly false.

The reason why I talk about you being dogmatic is becouse you understand life as something very simple and I havent seen you try to enquire about the nature of life us such. Its all clear to you and you are willing to pass judgments and impose punisments on the base of your simple understanding.

But as have been pointed out before life is not just clump of functioning cells. Life is also about making decisions...

 

[Zack]

Pro-life, huh. I bet if you had a chance to ask Hitler he would tell you he is pro-life too.

Come on!


Link to video.

 

[fishjie]

lol conservatives are "pro life", but against any type of programs that would help these unwanted children that are gonna be raised by mothers who either didn't want them, or too poor to raise them, or both.

lmao.

prolife until they are born, then its SCREW THOSE POOR PEOPLE!

edit: so lame this forum edits out swear words

 

[GhostWriter16]

Well, that's a start...

I hope the change isn't too inconsistent with the fact that I normally support the death penalty. I get, however, that when life begins is seen as controversial. I don't like it, I really don't, but its reality, and I couldn't in good conscience order the death penalty for someone who killed someone and did not believe that they killed someone, even if its clear to me that they did. Plus I can see in some ways how it could be "borderline" a religious conviction at the earliest levels. I don't really think its just a religious conviction, especially since some atheists also accept it. But where initially I ignored some of the bizarre examples given (Chimerism, for instance) I'll agree that that leaves at least enough certainty that we shouldn't kill people over it.

I do make an exception for the doctors though. There are some cases where you can kill one person and should not get a death penalty. I usually make the simple point "Murderers should be executed" but if they killed a single person without prior malice (In other words, a "Crime of passion" of sorts, and not premeditated) I'd usually advocate for life imprisonment. So I'd apply that here as well.

But if abortion doctors start practicing illegally (Assuming my system of laws were passed) they would have murdered far more than once, and they don't have the same desparation that the women do either. So I think the death penalty would still be appropriate there. It won't happen though, and I'd be plenty content with life imprisonment (Since, sadly, even that won't happen.)

But I would agree that if someone murders one person, and its disputable; at all, we should stick with life imprisonment. Much how I'm not willing to execute without very, very close to 100% evidence, even closer to 100% than I'd need to be to give a life sentence which could later be challenged.

lol conservatives are "pro life", but against any type of programs that would help these unwanted children that are gonna be raised by mothers who either didn't want them, or too poor to raise them, or both.

lmao.

prolife until they are born, then its SCREW THOSE POOR PEOPLE!

edit: so lame this forum edits out swear words

That's not the way I view it

I think before anything else we need to make adoption easier. Allow "gay" adoption too. I don't like it, but its better than having unwanted children without families. And if there's nobody who will adopt the children, the government should ensure they are supported, but that should be the last resort after doing everything possible to get them homes.

 

[fishjie]

I think before anything else we need to make adoption easier. Allow "gay" adoption too. I don't like it, but its better than having unwanted children without families. And if there's nobody who will adopt the children, the government should ensure they are supported, but that should be the last resort after doing everything possible to get them homes.

Oh yeah I dont like "gay" adoption either, wouldn't want those vile sinful "gays" gaying up the population with their evil gay agenda!

As for the rest of your post, I was going to type something out, but screw it, picture worth thousand words

 

[GhostWriter16]

The capital punishment bit is stupid. I'm not usually in favor of war (Not a pacifist, but against most wars of aggression)) but that's a stupid bit half the time as well. Sometimes wars can save lives. Capital punishment is a punishment for a crime.

Sometimes people will be killed but people shouldn't be killed unnecessarily.

The poverty and hunger bits are valid though. The legitimate debate is not whether the poor matter (They do) but who's job it is to fix it.

As for the environment, I don't think we have as major an issue there as some other people do.

 

[Farm Boy]

For as much as he's gone after if you want to apply shifts in view to the concept of open-mindedness, GW has us all beat stone-cold.

 

[GhostWriter16]

For as much as he's gone after if you want to apply shifts in view to the concept of open-mindedness, GW has us all beat stone-cold.

Do I really?

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't understand Farm Boy's statement.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I don't either. I'm extremely inflexible. I try to be a rational thinker (Although sometimes I fail) but I'm very inflexible.

 

[Zack]

For as much as he's gone after if you want to apply shifts in view to the concept of open-mindedness, GW has us all beat stone-cold.

Because he changed his mind to give women who have abortions life imprisonment instead of the death penalty? That's open-minded?

 

[GhostWriter16]

To be fair, I didn't make the claim that I was open minded

 

[Farm Boy]

Do you think that isn't much of a shift, particularly when the discussion is taking place on the internet?

 

[GhostWriter16]

It is a shift, but not the one most people wanted to see. Most people wanted me to be convinced that life does not begin until some time after conception (Or at least, life worth protecting.)

The conclusion that I came to is that to use lethal violence to support a debatable law is not a great conclusion, even if it is, in fact, clear cut in my own mind. So I changed my penalty to one that did not involve lethal violence. Its a substantial shift, but not one that anyone is going to give me credit for. Since my change had to do with my own line of thought and not really anyone else (Although Truronian can be credited somewhat for showing me the discussion is fairly complex) I don't really care what anyone else thinks of it.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, shifting from executing those who have abortions to "simply" locking them up for the rest of their lives is no less of a stupid and tyrannical idea that screams "big government" with every syllable, but it does represent a seismic shift in thought as far as GW is concerned. Accentuate the positive, as they say.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Well, shifting from executing those who have abortions to "simply" locking them up for the rest of their lives is no less of a stupid and tyrannical idea that screams "big government" with every syllable, but it does represent a seismic shift in thought as far as GW is concerned. Accentuate the positive, as they say.

Is it really big government if its protecting innocent life? That's a question, that, at the very least, deserves asking.

I don't really think "Keeping morality out of government" is possible here, either you think that a fetus is an innocent life from conception, and thus will say it is immoral to allow it to be killed, or you will say that a fetus obtains personhood at some later date than conception and then, until that date, it is immoral to restrict a woman's choice to abort that life since it doesn't possess personhood.

But I don't really think "Leaving morals out of it" is possible here. "Live and let live" doesn't really apply to a debate of what living and letting live really is. To me, abortion itself is a contradiction of "Live and let live" becuase of the whole "Let live" part. You aren't letting the fetus live.

That said, I have come around that using the death penalty to enforce a debated concept of what life is, no matter how sure I am that I'm right, is itself not right. Hence the change.

I have also stated that certain extreme situations, such as outside pressure or trauma from rape can reduce culpability to a lower level. I neglected to state how low though. Until I'm in a position of power, it really doesn't matter

 

[Arwon]

Well I guess for a government to properly get inside the uterus and claim it as state property, it can't be THAT big or it wouldn't fit, right GW?

Now we just have to figure out if the opposite of "God bless you Ghost Writer" is "God damn you Ghost Writer" or "God bless you Useless"...

May God punish your enemies and their children, TF.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Now we just have to figure out if the opposite of "God bless you Ghost Writer" is "God damn you Ghost Writer" or "God bless you Useless"...

Its the former though. I'd be perfectly willing to ask God to bless Useless. "Bless those who persecute you after all..." Of course, I don't do that as often as I should, not by a longshot, but hey, I'm not perfect nor did I claim to be.