The Outcast Sons of Pariah

[deadliver]

Okay so I was smoking a cigarette when it hit me, I love mutants! I love the look of them, the lore of them, sometimes........even the smell of 'em. Then I realized that really I liked outcasts even more!

I have done some preliminary writing such as background etc regarding this and I wanted to post my idea for a civ before posting the background I have:

The Sons of Pariah, a group of mutant refugees who have fled the lands of the Untouched notorious for their use and abuse of mutants. These lands include the Calabim and the Balseraph but also the potentially intolerant nations such as the Bannor and Khazad.

They call themselves the Sons of Pariah, after their leader, a female mutant with great wisdom and will who has forsaken her original name. Unfortunately the society attracts both peaceful and bloodthirsty elements. Some of the mutants were bandits while others formed small villages of farmers. Because of their sense of brotherhood, the bandits and farmers formed a sort of symbiotic relationship with the bandits providing muscle and goods and the farmers providing shelter and a sense of community.

Unfortunately the banditry (and intolerance in general) attracted the ire of their neighbors and begun the cycle of oppression all over again. With their villages enslaved and lives more or less destroyed the farmers banded together with the bandits for vengeance. This proved to be a losing (suicidal) battle and soon a new leader, calling herself Pariah, emerged who took control of her peoples remnants (with new refugees swelling their ranks all the time) and resolved to form their own society instead of living a scattered and isolated existence.

Units: Many of the low tier units will represent a mix of the Pariahs past, they will have Bounty Hunter (to represent their banditry) and many will also have HN. Of course they will be mutants but that could lead to getting some pretty awful or pretty powerful units so I am not sure if I should just have newly minted units granted the mutation promotion. Here are two examples. I think this civilization would be more defensive so their units starting with bonuses to attack cities would be rare to nonexistent.

Bandit (replaces Hunter)
starts with Bounty Hunter, HN
-50% attack vs. City
+25% vs. Animals, Beasts
+25% vs. Melee

Brigand (replaces Axeman)
starts with Bounty Hunter, HN
+25% vs. Warrior
Can use metal weapons

I envision this civ to be more of a raider/pillager civilization than a conquering one (at least not until the time is right) and they definitely should get diplomatic penalties with other players when using their HN units (the one about influencing their units).

Pariahs consider their mutations (now) to actually be gifts from the gods, they now believe that others are actually jealous of their abilities and that is why they were treated so harshly.

EDIT: oh yeah...I want the unit progression (later tiers) to represent the Pariahs evolution from a raider/pillager culture into a more normal and mainstream civilization. Still not sure if I should try to tie this to a choice made by the player but still working on that idea.

 

[Vehem]

Okay so I was smoking a cigarette when it hit me, I love mutants! I love the look of them, the lore of them, sometimes........even the smell of 'em. Then I realized that really I liked outcasts even more!

I have done some preliminary writing such as background etc regarding this and I wanted to post my idea for a civ before posting the background I have:

The Sons of Pariah, a group of mutant refugees who have fled the lands of the Untouched notorious for their use and abuse of mutants. These lands include the Calabim and the Balseraph but also the potentially intolerant nations such as the Bannor and Khazad.

They call themselves the Sons of Pariah, after their leader, a female mutant with great wisdom and will who has forsaken her original name. Unfortunately the society attracts both peaceful and bloodthirsty elements. Some of the mutants were bandits while others formed small villages of farmers. Because of their sense of brotherhood, the bandits and farmers formed a sort of symbiotic relationship with the bandits providing muscle and goods and the farmers providing shelter and a sense of community.

Unfortunately the banditry (and intolerance in general) attracted the ire of their neighbors and begun the cycle of oppression all over again. With their villages enslaved and lives more or less destroyed the farmers banded together with the bandits for vengeance. This proved to be a losing (suicidal) battle and soon a new leader, calling herself Pariah, emerged who took control of her peoples remnants (with new refugees swelling their ranks all the time) and resolved to form their own society instead of living a scattered and isolated existence.

Units: Many of the low tier units will represent a mix of the Pariahs past, they will have Bounty Hunter (to represent their banditry) and many will also have HN. Of course they will be mutants but that could lead to getting some pretty awful or pretty powerful units so I am not sure if I should just have newly minted units granted the mutation promotion. Here are two examples. I think this civilization would be more defensive so their units starting with bonuses to attack cities would be rare to nonexistent.

Bandit (replaces Hunter)
starts with Bounty Hunter, HN
-50% attack vs. City
+25% vs. Animals, Beasts
+25% vs. Melee

Brigand (replaces Axeman)
starts with Bounty Hunter, HN
+25% vs. Warrior
Can use metal weapons

I envision this civ to be more of a raider/pillager civilization than a conquering one (at least not until the time is right) and they definitely should get diplomatic penalties with other players when using their HN units (the one about influencing their units).

Pariahs consider their mutations (now) to actually be gifts from the gods, they now believe that others are actually jealous of their abilities and that is why they were treated so harshly.

EDIT: oh yeah...I want the unit progression (later tiers) to represent the Pariahs evolution from a raider/pillager culture into a more normal and mainstream civilization. Still not sure if I should try to tie this to a choice made by the player but still working on that idea.

Sounds a nice concept - I'd emphasise the mutation aspect beyond just having the promotion, maybe give their unit access to a closed subset of physical mutations that they select one of immediately after creation only (MaxAge of 1, NoXP, block each other) which would allow things like extra muscular, fast, extra limbs, keen senses, horns - anything really. Each of those could have a later promotion line requiring higher levels (as with the spiders), so that the units are a mix of mutation-based promotions and normal promotions.

 

[WarKirby]

I'm thinking extra mutation promos are needed in general. A civ entirely focused on mutation is an interesting concept though

 

[Tarquelne]

Assuming they encourage further mutations and have Chaos as a palace mana, perhaps units can get a free, random, always beneficial (though sometimes not very beneficial) promotion whenever upgraded? Or over time? I like Vehem's idea, too. That and this aren't necessarily exclusive of each other.

Would extra gold from pillaging be better than Bounty Hunter to represent banditry?

Withdraw ratings sounds like a good idea for at least the early, "brigands civ" units. Lower attacks with high withdraw could give a nice guerrilla feel.

And if they become undead are they the Sons of Patria or the Scions of Pariah?

 

[deadliver]

Sounds a nice concept - I'd emphasise the mutation aspect beyond just having the promotion, maybe give their unit access to a closed subset of physical mutations that they select one of immediately after creation only (MaxAge of 1, NoXP, block each other) which would allow things like extra muscular, fast, extra limbs, keen senses, horns - anything really. Each of those could have a later promotion line requiring higher levels (as with the spiders), so that the units are a mix of mutation-based promotions and normal promotions.

I'm thinking extra mutation promos are needed in general. A civ entirely focused on mutation is an interesting concept though

Hmm, okay perhaps I should come up with an expanded list of mutations then. Yeah I have to admit i was inspired in part by the Archos and their own brand of mutant scum, but these guys will be even more mutated than they are.

Assuming they encourage further mutations and have Chaos as a palace mana, perhaps units can get a free, random, always beneficial (though sometimes not very beneficial) promotion whenever upgraded? Or over time? I like Vehem's idea, too. That and this aren't necessarily exclusive of each other.

Would extra gold from pillaging be better than Bounty Hunter to represent banditry?

Withdraw ratings sounds like a good idea for at least the early, "brigands civ" units. Lower attacks with high withdraw could give a nice guerrilla feel.

And if they become undead are they the Sons of Patria or the Scions of Pariah?

I think maybe there should be mutations that can be chosen as gear OR as a promotion. That is possible right? Regarding the gold gains, to be honest I just love the Bounty Hunter promotion but the xtra pillaging sounds interesting? You are right about the withdrawal ratings. If I gave them Skirmisher for example (that is 15% right?) Probably instead of the promotion I would give them a good base withdrawal. How much should i nerf their str, one point?

Lol. The name will probably remain the same, these guys would fight the Scions to keep their "gifts" intact. Thats assuming the Emperor's hired Dwarven cannons didn't simply crater the civ and move on to new victims of course.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas so far!

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

Perhaps molding them into line near the Raiders and Supermutants of Fallout3 wouldn't be to far off for a good mark.

Encouraging high mobility, constant fighting, units that have no uniform behavior, that such.


Another thing would be to let them follow 'lines' of mutation, via promotions, or even just randomly obtained as the unit ages.



However, there's also the question of how they work Economically/Peacefully. It's nice to have the many tentacled horror of Armageddon on a leash, but when you cant afford to feed it, things get tricky. What would be pursued as their unique building focus? What traits would their leader(s) carry? What would their restrictions be for construction? Would they have a unique Population/City creation (mind they are the outcasts of the world afterall)?

 

[solistus]

A few quick thoughts:

I love the idea. Mutations are cool but hard to build much of a strategy around; a mutant-based civ could be really fun.

Chaos mana from the palace is a given, unless you give them a unit that can cast mutation without Chaos II.

One interesting option would be a way to _remove_ the Mutant promo to allow a unit to be mutated again. This would have to be limited somehow to prevent ridiculous overpowered unit crafting, but it could be a very powerful and unique ability.

Perhaps an expensive way to 'reset' mutant promos on a unit? I'm not sure how difficult this would be to code.... Perhaps the unit could just have all its promos and exp wiped, then be given exp equal to its old amount, so its mutant promos and any equipment would be lost, but the player could reset promos? This would make players more willing to mutate their hero and national units.

Speaking of heroes... One of their heroes should have a unique promo that gives it random mutant promotions over time. Perhaps from the new beneficial mutations pool you would create for the civ. Perhaps they could have a mid-game hero that comes in several 'flavors', one of which is randomly selected on unit creation (a mounted version, a caster, a melee, a recon, etc.). Each one is rather strong for its time, but you don't know which one you'll get until it's ready.

Onto that. I like the idea of both expanding the existing mutations pool and creating an all positive but mostly fairly minor set of unique mutations for new Outcast units. Perhaps they should be net positive but with bonuses and penalties strongly pushing the unit toward a specialised role? Examples: +25% v. [Melee/Mounted/whatever], -10% v. the rest; +20% withdrawal, -1 Strength; -1 Offense +1 Defense or vice versa; +1 Movement, +1 Sight, Defensive Combat Only; etc. The idea would be to make Outcast units fairly powerful on spawn, but force the player to adapt to the random units s/he is given, especially early on before one can spam enough units to have plenty of every type you need. If my first 3 units are all anti-mounted mutants, I may want to think about DoWing the Hippus as soon as they send their forces out against another civ; if I get a bunch of explorer mutants, I should probably focus on exploring and ReXing rather than earlygame warring. OK, so this was a less quick thought.

A final, quick thought: they should _eventually_ get a unit whose main schtick is just starting with regular ole' Mutant promos. Maybe _without_ the Mutant promo itself, so it could be re-mutated for more fun? See above for my thoughts on remutating >

Basically, the gameplay theme I would expect with a mutant civ is random promos and changes to my units, but mechanics need to be crafted so that the race is interesting and reasonably balanced rather than either trash or ridiculously overpowered based on sheer luck (hey, my early hero got Heavy and +Strength mutations! / hey, my early hero got all the -Strength and -%strength mutations!). Regular old mutations should be available, even encouraged, but not at the expense of playability and balance.

To finish up: some thought should be given for cool unique versions of religious and arcane caster units. Magical mutants, oh my!

 

[Vehem]

On the topic of gold/bandits/withdrawal - it's probably feasible to set up some post-combat python to grant some gold whenever you survive rather than win... You can also setup a python promotion that allows you to earn a small amount of gold per turn if you remain fortified on a road in enemy territory (highway robbery) - make the unit hidden nationality and cause anger in nearby cities to allow the opponent to deal with them, would need a national limit though...

(These are mostly ideas from when I was considering expanding the Rogue-line of the Austtin. In the end I decided against it as it meant having two conflicting themes for the way the civ worked...

 

[deadliver]

On the topic of gold/bandits/withdrawal - it's probably feasible to set up some post-combat python to grant some gold whenever you survive rather than win... You can also setup a python promotion that allows you to earn a small amount of gold per turn if you remain fortified on a road in enemy territory (highway robbery) - make the unit hidden nationality and cause anger in nearby cities to allow the opponent to deal with them, would need a national limit though...

(These are mostly ideas from when I was considering expanding the Rogue-line of the Austtin. In the end I decided against it as it meant having two conflicting themes for the way the civ worked...

I like the Highway robbery idea. If I get this thing off the ground and finish the XML I can do you think someone will be willing to help with the python (oh wait I meant DO the python) as I have zippo skills with that.

Perhaps molding them into line near the Raiders and Supermutants of Fallout3 wouldn't be to far off for a good mark.

Another thing would be to let them follow 'lines' of mutation, via promotions, or even just randomly obtained as the unit ages.

What traits would their leader(s) carry? What would their restrictions be for construction? Would they have a unique Population/City creation (mind they are the outcasts of the world afterall)?

Good points, thank you for the input. As far as traits go I am still just trying to get the mutant lineage xml set up, I will worry about the traits later (though I think raider be in). Population growth will probably be normal.

Mutations are cool but hard to build much of a strategy around; a mutant-based civ could be really fun.

Chaos mana from the palace is a given, unless you give them a unit that can cast mutation without Chaos II.

One interesting option would be a way to _remove_ the Mutant promo to allow a unit to be mutated again. This would have to be limited somehow to prevent ridiculous overpowered unit crafting, but it could be a very powerful and unique ability.

Perhaps an expensive way to 'reset' mutant promos on a unit? I'm not sure how difficult this would be to code.... Perhaps the unit could just have all its promos and exp wiped, then be given exp equal to its old amount, so its mutant promos and any equipment would be lost, but the player could reset promos? This would make players more willing to mutate their hero and national units.

Basically, the gameplay theme I would expect with a mutant civ is random promos and changes to my units, but mechanics need to be crafted so that the race is interesting and reasonably balanced rather than either trash or ridiculously overpowered based on sheer luck (hey, my early hero got Heavy and +Strength mutations! / hey, my early hero got all the -Strength and -%strength mutations!). Regular old mutations should be available, even encouraged, but not at the expense of playability and balance.

To finish up: some thought should be given for cool unique versions of religious and arcane caster units. Magical mutants, oh my!

What I want to do is have mutant lineages basically. So for example, a unit starts off with strong, then can be promoted to Strong II (or some other equally creative name), etc. I think I will take a cue from the Jotnar and make these age related as opposed to level based. If the player wants to take their chances by adding further mutations (such as through the mutate spell) they are welcome to.

I think I may be getting a little ahead of myself with all this as I still need to finish a list of their UUs but I want to allow the player to be able to customize their units as much as my noobish xml skills allow.

Thanks again for the input so far guys!

 

[Opera]

This is a really good idea, deadliver.

You could have a list of unique spells/abilities tied to the mutation list. Thus, some units will start with a kind of "power", like many of those "mutants" if fiction. Maybe only allow that list for Arcane units, maybe not. Of course, some units (maybe one only) should start with the Chaos II spell in order to mutate non-mutated units... maybe captured by a special recon unit, Kidnapper?

Anyway, very nice idea. I'll follow it closely

 

[deadliver]

This is a really good idea, deadliver.

You could have a list of unique spells/abilities tied to the mutation list. Thus, some units will start with a kind of "power", like many of those "mutants" if fiction. Maybe only allow that list for Arcane units, maybe not. Of course, some units (maybe one only) should start with the Chaos II spell in order to mutate non-mutated units... maybe captured by a special recon unit, Kidnapper?

Anyway, very nice idea. I'll follow it closely

Kidnapper, nice. Mutated slaves could be "accepted" into a city (after all where else will they go?!?)

 

[WarKirby]

A few mutation ideas

Tentacles
+1 first strikes
+10% vs Melee units

Cold Blooded (exclusive with Lizardman racial promo, can't have both)
+25% jungle Strength
+25% attack in Marsh
River crossing/amphibious attack penalty halved
Cannot Enter Tundra
Cannot Enter Snow

Gills
Can walk on water (swim, really. Including oceans)
-25% combat in water (to not make sinking ships so easy)
No river/amphibious penalty

 

[deadliver]

No matter how much Fox News I watch I still cannot make up my mind about these mutations so I am going to ask you guys:

Okay, so I am working on a Mutant civ and I want your opinion regarding mutations. Should I:

A.) Start off with weak base units and allow the player to customize them with up to 3 mutations?
These mutations could later be level upgraded to a second level version?
An example would be a Warrior. He starts off with Str 2 but upon creation he can immediately chose at least one mutation that enhances his abilities. So he could take Strong 1 (+20% Str) which he could later level upgrade to Strong 2 (+40% str, +25% v. Melee). Of course that same warrior could upgrade later to an Axeman.

The different unit upgrades (i.e. Axemen) would simply represent a better equipped unit rather than a reliance on specific weapons etc. So an Axeman would probably be Str 3 (base before weapon upgrades) but he too would be able to chose a mutation upon creation.

B.) Start off with more or less normal units and have them progress along a lineage chosen at initial creation. An example of this would be a Warrior. He starts off with str 3 and upon creation choses a mutation that evolves as the unit gets older using the jotnar system of aging. I am looking at probably 4 levels of mutations (i.e. Strong 1 through 4) So far I have the following lineage:

Bulging Muscles (Strong 1) (+20% str.) REPLACED BY
Large Mutant (Strong 2) (+40% str., +25% v. Melee) REPLACED BY
Hulking Mutant (Strong 3) (+60% str., +50% v. Melee, +25% v. Cavalry) REPLACED BY
Massive Mutant (Strong 4) (+80% str., +50% v. melee, +25% v. Cavalry

In addition to a lineage, the mutant would also be able to choose one mutation (such as tentacles to use War Kirby's idea.)

Option A would require a whole lot of different and unique promotions, which would expand the mutations you could gain through mutating units in general. Option B would require less but still a decent number (at least 20)

I am going to use my friend's Realm of Chaos books for their Chaos Attributes list (a D1000 random chart, and Warhammer Battle System would probably port over okay in Civ) so I am not lacking for ideas (though of course opinions are ALWAYS welcome!) but which system should I use?

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I prefer the second option.

 

[xienwolf]

I think it would be interesting to fold the second option into the current mutation mechanic. Make a second and third rank for each of the current Mutations which this Civ will advance through. For those few negative mutations, the second is a more significant negative, BUT surviving through it (which requires taking some risk, not just waiting for time to pass ideally) leads to some massively overpowered final form. Like Withered advances to Decrepit, which brings you down to 10% strength, removes the ability to do ranged attacks or gain passive/Free XP and you only gain 10% normal XP, also sets you at level 4 with 0 XP when acquired, and only after reaching Level 5 does it upgrade to Flesh Rotter, which sets your combat limit at 99% (can't kill, but can put them on the edge of death) and has a PyPostCombat which saps the enemies XP, granting a portion of it to yourself, and removes a random purchasable promotion from them. Once they have no more purchasable promotions it finally kills the unit.


Getting such a creature made would require some extreme luck with Goody Huts or Spirit Guide, or some VERY cautious nursing through some easy battles due to his massively reduced strength and pathetically slow XP gain rate. But once you come out the other side, not only are you neigh-unstoppable, but you can see your opponents whimper and cry in your wake

 

[deadliver]

I do prefer doing a lineage style method myself. How about this. I'll finish 4 levels of mutations for several different categories (Strength-buffs and % bonuses, Speed-movement and first strikes, Defense-tanking and probably one or two other categories).

I'd prefer that these lineages remain positive, but I am open to the idea of ALSO blessing each unit with a random mutation upon creation. I can, once I finish the lineages, contribute some mutations in the xml as well, both positive and negative...

Oh, Xienwolf btw, you are evil!

I cannot hope to contribute to python but i will definitely contribute as many mutations as I can.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

I'd like indulging lineage+selecting from a handful of 'outcasts only' mutations, but also that all units of the outcasts have Mutation cast on them on creation.

After all, the whole point of a mutant is that it's a mutant ;3

 

[deadliver]

Yeah I mean there should be some sort of random element as well. The real issue bro is that there are too few mutations. to choose from. I'd prefer to keep the lineages seperate, except the lowest level which would be thrown into the mutation promo pool. Course, now i have to also come up with negative ones to balance out the positive.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

What about making the mutations specialised instead. Like for example +2 atack -2 defense.
That would work with the flavour of a race that is mutated. They can do the things they are good for much better, but the things they suck at they suck real bad.

 

[deadliver]

What about making the mutations specialised instead. Like for example +2 atack -2 defense.
That would work with the flavour of a race that is mutated. They can do the things they are good for much better, but the things they suck at they suck real bad.

I am planning on having specialized mutations for Str., Speed, Defense, and Ranged Attacks in the form of lineages. However, I also want to have "regular" mutants available to0, a player shouldn't have to choose a lineage if they do not want and instead have the opportunity to make their own muties through mutations etc.