The Panopticon Wonder Discussion Thread

[ashendashin]

I sure do love how free and equal I am in the wonderful US of A.

 

[ridjack]

Pineappledan's wife, who has actually read Foucault, chiming in:

Panopticism is based on power imbalance. Prisons, and the model of the panopticon are based on the idea of "docile bodies". Constant surveillance makes the subject feel and internalize their subjugation through unequal gaze.

This works in civilization because you are effectively an omnipresent sovereign. Sort of.

Using the construction of a Panopticon to indicate that you have "arrived" culturally means that the only way that you could enact your cultural dominance was through the creation of docile bodies; through coercion, instead of suggestion. In some respect, a panopticon could be seen as an utter failure to create cultural dominance. The antithesis of cultural control. If the only way to enact your will is through discipline and violence, then you have not brought people over to your way of thinking. You have enslaved people while they are still conscious of their bondage.

On the other hand, cultural victory could be seen as a way to make the prisoner "love their chains".

It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.
- Voltaire

@pineappledan Please kiss that woman for me.

 

[pineappledan]

@pineappledan Please kiss that woman for me.

Always.

 

[CrazyG]

I honestly think some kind of national monument would be a better representation. Looking at modern countries whose cultures have some influence abroad (such as the USA or Japan), I don't see a connection to prisons or utilitarianism.

I'm personally fine with having a project like this.

 

[ElliotS]

I definitely side with @pineappledan here. CV is a very vague concept and the wonder should be vague. Utopia Project was good because it could be whatever you thought it was.

I think if G made the wonder "Utopia Project" from the get-go there's about a 0% chance that we'd have a thread debating if we should call it a "Panopticon".

Personally I've always viewed the CV as a removal of all borders and dissolution of national identity, leading into a world government united by YOUR common values.

 

[Gazebo]

Pineappledan's wife, who has actually read Foucault, chiming in:

Panopticism is based on power imbalance. Prisons, and the model of the panopticon are based on the idea of "docile bodies". Constant surveillance makes the subject feel and internalize their subjugation through unequal gaze.

This works in civilization because you are an omnipresent sovereign. Sort of.

Using the construction of a Panopticon to indicate that you have "arrived" culturally means that the only way you could enact your cultural dominance was through the creation of docile bodies; through coercion instead of suggestion. In some respect, a panopticon could be seen as the utter failure to create cultural dominance; the antithesis of cultural control. If the only way to enact your will is through discipline and violence, then you have not brought people over to your way of thinking. Instead you have enslaved people while they are still conscious of their bondage.

On the other hand, cultural victory could be seen as a way to make the prisoner "love their chains".

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere."
- Voltaire

I think your wife (PineappleJan, maybe?) is correct, however her point doesn't contradict the reason I chose the panopticon as a symbol: consciousness of imprisonment (be it cultural or literal) is the point and problem of Foucault's model...and yet that's exactly what is happening in Civ. Your culture - language, clothing, music, art, way of life, values, etc. - are so powerful (a vague concept in the realm of culture, but bear with me) that they're literally overpowering the culture value-sets of others and 'sweeping them away.' People do not suddenly forget what it was to be an authoritative member of their own culture - they are aware of the transition, and of the implication that the culture that they embraced (by force, as the terms influential/dominant used by civ must be noted) was non-negotiable. That, to me, is the ultimate example of coercive social thinking, which is precisely what a Panopticon (abstraction for the mobilization of bodily/political control through passive, omnipotent coercion) is supposed to represent.

I definitely side with @pineappledan here. CV is a very vague concept and the wonder should be vague. Utopia Project was good because it could be whatever you thought it was.

I think if G made the wonder "Utopia Project" from the get-go there's about a 0% chance that we'd have a thread debating if we should call it a "Panopticon".

Personally I've always viewed the CV as a removal of all borders and dissolution of national identity, leading into a world government united by YOUR common values.

I personally find the concept of a global monoculture absolutely abhorrent and terrifying. Nothing utopian about it.

Anyways I love the idea of each ideology getting its own version of the building, so that'll be what I'll do for the next version (if we keep the CV wonder in at all). So brainstorm what autocratic/ordered/freedom'd projects should define those cultural hegemons.

G

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Possible alternative wonder to the Panopticon: The Marvel Cinematic Universe.

I'm not even joking. The MCU is a global phenomenon that has made more money and had more cultural impact than any project in recent world history. It is inclusive, relatively free of nationalistic ideals, has had many hands from many cultural and ideological backgrounds work on it. It is as close to a celebration/exploration of ideals of heroism/morality that we have come up with as a global community so far.

People have been joking that the US won a cultural victory IRL back in the 60s, so it's not nearly as much of a stretch as one would think.

How about a Disneyland wonder (everybody loves Disneyland) and also they own Marvel comics.

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Panopticon sounds about right with the essence of a culture victory. You're literally subverting nations through the most indirect method available and towards the end even warmongers get their tourism options.
How are you gonna conquer the world with music and movies alone? That's the stuff that makes people susceptible to subversion.

Look at the Disney corporation world wide culture.

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

The cultural victory isn't about your government taking over all the other governments of the world. That's limited to Military and Diplomatic victory, which go about it in different ways. This victory is about your culture being omnipresent to the point that no other culture exists.

Sounds like what the Disney corporation is trying to accomplish.

 

[ridjack]

This is seriously the best discussion I've participated in for some time. Thanks, folks!

How about a Disneyland wonder (everybody loves Disneyland) and also they own Marvel comics.

I know I'd be personally be happier if we could find something less... commercial. (Besides which there are almost certainly legal concerns there, and Disney isn't known for leniency in that respect.)

So brainstorm what autocratic/ordered/freedom'd projects should define those cultural hegemons.

I mean, I think you've already got one sorted. Seems like the Panopticon would be perfectly suited to either Order or Autocracy. Or you could just remove any pretense of subtlety and call one of em 'Big Brother.' Ministry of Truth? I could probably pull out Orwell references all day for this. I think Freedom is going to be more tricky.


@ScooterDWiebels ...you really like Disney, don't ya?

 

[pineappledan]

I think your wife (PineappleJan, maybe?) is correct, however her point doesn't contradict the reason I chose the panopticon as a symbol: consciousness of imprisonment (be it cultural or literal) is the point and problem of Foucault's model...and yet that's exactly what is happening in Civ. Your culture - language, clothing, music, art, way of life, values, etc. - are so powerful (a vague concept in the realm of culture, but bear with me) that they're literally overpowering the culture value-sets of others and 'sweeping them away.' People do not suddenly forget what it was to be an authoritative member of their own culture - they are aware of the transition, and of the implication that the culture that they embraced (by force, as the terms influential/dominant used by civ must be noted) was non-negotiable. That, to me, is the ultimate example of coercive social thinking, which is precisely what a Panopticon (abstraction for the mobilization of bodily/political control through passive, omnipotent coercion) is supposed to represent.

This drives at the root of the issue, which is that much of the community views the cultural victory as a coercive submersion of another culture, while others view it as a voluntary relinquishing. Whatever the real-world mechanics of it would really be, I don't get the impression that the creators of civ meant to imply the (very real) dangers of a global monoculture. This goes back to civ's intentions often being much loftier than its mechanics.

For my part, I see the inclusion of a panopticon as almost comically cynical. It implies that cultural understanding and integration of peoples is not only undesirable, but actively evil. This cynicism is so blatant that it almost retroactively vandalizes the original intent of Civ to be an inclusive and hopeful game.

Anyways I love the idea of each ideology getting its own version of the building, so that'll be what I'll do for the next version (if we keep the CV wonder in at all). So brainstorm what autocratic/ordered/freedom'd projects should define those cultural hegemons

I think Welthaupstadt Germania is a dead ringer for Autocracy. The Nazi regime's ultimate design for a new Berlin was so grandiose and monolithic in its conception that it would have to be an auto-win if ever actually built. The design was so ambitious that Berlin's soil couldn't physically have withstood such colossal architecture; the whole thing would have likely sunk into the earth if built

Other's have been suggesting Disneyland, but I think speculative dream-projects are a better match. Disney's Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow (EPCOT) would be a great contender for Freedom. A moviemaker capitalist envisioned a city of his own design to act as a blueprint for the cities of tomorrow. That fits the bill, I would say.

Three ideas pop out at me for Order, actually. Communists are obsessed with mega-projects so there are tons more to choose from.

• The first being the Panopticon of course, which we have discussed here at length.
• Another possibility is China's Belt and Road Initiative. The Chinese infrastructure project is designed to bring China into an era of diplomatic and economic hegemony throughout Asia. It's... a disquietingly monumental project which seems to have little regard for the risks or feasibility of what is actually being undertaken
• The last idea being Stalin's massive Palace of the People, a rather silly looking building, all told, which had to be cancelled by the start of WWII. He demolished the largest church in Russia to build it, but then nothing was built on top until the space was converted to a pool in the 60s

For my part I would go with the Palace of the people, which would give a magnificent symmetry to the 3 wonders:

• scrapped projects
• dated from 1938-1965
• visions of the future as seen by 3 very different men with very different aims
  • A capitalist who saw a city as a test-bed for consumer products
  • A blood-soaked despot who destroyed a house of God to raise a shrine to socialism on its foundations
  • A maniac, who envisioned his capital city re-made into the capital of the entire world

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

I know I'd be personally be happier if we could find something less... commercial. (Besides which there are almost certainly legal concerns there, and Disney isn't known for leniency in that respect.)

Then you can't have the MCU either (also owned by Disney) I just like the idea of Mickey Mouse taking over the world.

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Other's have been suggesting Disneyland, but I think things that speculative, dream-projects are a better match. Though I am not in favor of Disneyland, Disney's Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow (EPCOT) would be a great contender for Freedom. A moviemaker capitalist envisioned a city of his own design to act as a blueprint for the cities of tomorrow. That fits the bill, I would say.

That would be a great idea, I like it.

 

[Gazebo]

This drives at the root of the issue, which is that much of the community views the cultural victory as a coercive submersion of another culture, while others view it as a voluntary relinquishing. Whatever the real-world mechanics of it would really be, I don't get the impression that the creators of civ meant to imply the (very real) dangers of a global monoculture. This goes back to civ's intentions often being much loftier than its mechanics.

For my part, I see the inclusion of a panopticon as almost comically cynical. It implies that cultural understanding and integration of peoples is not only undesirable, but actively evil. This cynicism is so blatant that it almost retroactively vandalizes the original intent of Civ to be an inclusive and hopeful game.

I think Welthaupstadt Germania is a dead ringer for Autocracy. The Nazi regime's ultimate design for a new Berlin was so grandiose and monolithic in its conception that it would have to be an auto-win if ever actually built. The design was so ambitious that Berlin's soil couldn't physically have withstood such colossal architecture; the whole thing would have likely sunk into the earth if built

Other's have been suggesting Disneyland, but I think speculative dream-projects are a better match. Disney's Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow (EPCOT) would be a great contender for Freedom. A moviemaker capitalist envisioned a city of his own design to act as a blueprint for the cities of tomorrow. That fits the bill, I would say.

Three ideas pop out at me for Order, actually. Communists are obsessed with mega-projects so there are tons more to choose from.

• The first being the Panopticon of course, which we have discussed here at length.
• Another possibility is China's Belt and Road Initiative. The Chinese infrastructure project is designed to bring China into an era of diplomatic and economic hegemony throughout Asia. It's... a disquietingly monumental project which seems to have little regard for the risks or feasibility of what is actually being undertaken
• The last idea being Stalin's massive Palace of the People, a rather silly looking building, all told, which had to be cancelled by the start of WWII

In what alternate universe is civ an inclusive and hopeful game? It has a positivist view of technology, sure, but hardly anything else about civ is 'hopeful' (especially older entries in the series).

G

 

[Stalker0]

What if you just called it the "Grand Union" project or something like that. It can be coercive or positive depending on your viewpoint. In other words, people can flavor it however they would like.

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

In what alternate universe is civ an inclusive and hopeful game? It has a positivist view of technology, sure, but hardly anything else about civ is 'hopeful' (especially older entries in the series).

G

But to me the only thing I could imagine a cultural victory looking like would be something like a Disney corporation. They are world wide and influential in all parts of the world. The have influence everywhere. They're kind of like the Borg where they purchase everything and assimilate it.

 

[Jarula]

Why not just utopia project? And if you want maybe adding stuff from beyond earth could be cool.

 

[Gazebo]

But to me the only thing I could imagine a cultural victory looking like would be something like a Disney corporation. They are world wide and influential in all parts of the world. The have influence everywhere. They're kind of like the Borg where they purchase everything and assimilate it.

Ah yes, and we all know how wonderful and happy the borg are (is?).

G

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Ah yes, and we all know how wonderful and happy the borg are (is?).

G

They do own the death star now, and you will love Mickey Mouse or else.

 

[CrazyG]

I like each ideology having their own version, it makes a ton more sense.