The pope fights against animal slaughter...ban

[Farm Boy]

How many hours does it take an animal to die when the arteries to its brain have been severed?

"The act is performed by severing the trachea, esophagus, carotid arteries, jugular veins and vagus nerve in a swift action using an extremely sharp blade"

Is the old decapitation now inhumane for chickens? Crimeny, blood is scary, I still want to eat meat but it's scary and surprising when I have to think about where it comes from, Imma bury my head in the sand and pretend that I can help make the cold, old, truth more "paletable."

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, really, it's the fear leading up to the slaughter that matters.

 

[Defiant47]

Having had a Muslim roommate back in my university days, I was told that this method of slaughter is actually less painful for the animal. Something about slowly fading out, or similar.

But this method of killing the animals is just ripe for people to misinterpret.

 

[Farm Boy]

Fear leading up to slaughter is only important in that the fear can actually impact the quality of meat if it damages the good immediately prior to the animal being killed. Other than that it's pretty indistinguishable from the fear an animal experiences anytime you ship it somewhere it isn't familiar with or force it to move from pasture to pasture when it doesn't want to.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't know if I agree. Smelling blood can really trigger different categories of fear.

 

[Farm Boy]

I don't know if I agree. Smelling blood can really trigger different categories of fear.

Ship cows by truck. There is blood. In lesser quantities, yes. But I don't think their noses are too dull to pick it up.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Lots of claims without any evidence shown here. Was hoping for a stronger debate to watch.

 

[Tsoate]

How many hours does it take an animal to die when the arteries to its brain have been severed?

"The act is performed by severing the trachea, esophagus, carotid arteries, jugular veins and vagus nerve in a swift action using an extremely sharp blade"

Is the old decapitation now inhumane for chickens? Crimeny, blood is scary, I still want to eat meat but it's scary and surprising when I have to think about where it comes from, Imma bury my head in the sand and pretend that I can help make the cold, old, truth more "paletable."

"hours" is very disingenuous. Even if it takes five minutes, rather than instant, that is five minutes of suffering the animal didn't have to go through.

 

[Tsoate]

Ship cows by truck. There is blood. In lesser quantities, yes. But I don't think their noses are too dull to pick it up.

Because you can give other unpleasant experiences are irrelevant. I've seen a car crash, i've been in a car crash, doesn't mean i'm fine with being in another one!

 

[Farm Boy]

Lots of claims without any evidence shown here. Was hoping for a stronger debate to watch.

What are you curious about specifically Oh Killer of Intercontinental Worlds? My frustration with my perceived notion of most people being ignorant and nonsensical about the realities of where food comes from usually hinders me from being very ambitious at first glance. What evidence do you seek?

 

[Farm Boy]

"hours" is very disingenuous. Even if it takes five minutes, rather than instant, that is five minutes of suffering the animal didn't have to go through.

You used the term hours? I was trying to address your concern in the units of time you were concerned with. I know somebody mentioned Grandin - seems like 30 seconds is a pretty good goal, it's the one she targets. Even when missing that goal I doubt it's 5 minutes unless you botch something badly. And I think it would be really really really naive to think that migrant laborers with brain-smashing pistons never miss and botch the hell out of a particular slaughter.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.box.variables.time.lose.sensibility.html

 

[Defiant47]

Lots of claims without any evidence shown here. Was hoping for a stronger debate to watch.

Issue is that there is inherent bias for all claimants. I'm sure if I Google it, I could find supporters and evidence on both sides. Muslims will try to protect their religious way of lives, whereas opposers will find the idea too abhorrent to conceive of this method not harming animals. Both sides are hopelessly biased.

 

[Tsoate]

You used the term hours? I was trying to address your concern in the units of time you were concerned with. I know somebody mentioned Grandin - seems like 30 seconds is a pretty good goal, it's the one she targets. Even when missing that goal I doubt it's 5 minutes unless you botch something badly. And I think it would be really really really naive to think that migrant laborers with brain-smashing pistons never miss and botch the hell out of a particular slaughter.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.box.variables.time.lose.sensibility.html

You are arguing for something when done right, with something when done wrong?

When both are done correctly. Only then is it worth making comparisons.

 

[Farm Boy]

You are arguing for something when done right, with something when done wrong?

Ok, spell that out for me in more short sentences because I'm becoming relatively confused at what specifically you are addressing.

Any method of slaughter will both be done right and done wrong. Grandin is studying in the link I included how to best do Kosher slaughter. Just like secular slaughterhouses do. How to best minimize fear response prior to slaughter. How to best reduce time between infliction of fatal wound and loss of consciousness. How to best minimize mistakes because they are going to happen. How to best use a method that is going to maximize quality of meat and animal product and reduce waste. The last of which is of pivotal importance to me, well because if you are going to kill something you darn well better do your best to make sure you're making the most out of it. Call it a measure of respect from one who has helped raise animals for slaughter on occasion.

 

[warpus]

In the end if halal is deemed to be incompatible with modern meat processing practices, and if these practices can't be altered to incorporate halal, I see the banning of halal as the only option. I hate to say this, but Muslims would have to adapt.

Mind you, I am not convinced that halal would not be compatible, since it does not seem to be that much more cruel than what's usually done in western slaughterhouses. I really have no idea though, as I am not an expert on the issue.

My position might be clear. If something isn't compatible at all with our laws, then creating an exception to the laws rather than banning the thing which is incompatible.. would not be right. Laws exist for a reason. If animals are suffering as a result, even more so. If it's something about headgear, we can usually "work around" the laws, cause hats generally don't feel pain.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Issue is that there is inherent bias for all claimants. I'm sure if I Google it, I could find supporters and evidence on both sides. Muslims will try to protect their religious way of lives, whereas opposers will find the idea too abhorrent to conceive of this method not harming animals. Both sides are hopelessly biased.

I'm hoping that the excess passion will become irrelevant when the debate turns to the biological details of nociception and slaughter in farm animals.

 

[Defiant47]

I'm hoping that the excess passion will become irrelevant when the debate turns to the biological details of nociception and slaughter in farm animals.

When talking about religious beliefs and knee-jerk emotional reactions? Dream on

 

[Lillefix]

Mind you, I am not convinced that halal would not be compatible, since it does not seem to be that much more cruel than what's usually done in western slaughterhouses.

Have to agree with you there. Halal and kosher can hardly be worse than what goes on nowadays in some slaughterhouses. The main difference is that it is possible to change nonreligious slaughter to something more humane while halal and kosher will never change. So perhaps it will be easier to justify a ban in the future when we find more humane ways to slaughter the animals.

 

[Tsoate]

Ok, spell that out for me in more short sentences because I'm becoming relatively confused at what specifically you are addressing.

Any method of slaughter will both be done right and done wrong. Grandin is studying in the link I included how to best do Kosher slaughter. Just like secular slaughterhouses do. How to best minimize fear response prior to slaughter. How to best reduce time between infliction of fatal wound and loss of consciousness. How to best minimize mistakes because they are going to happen. How to best use a method that is going to maximize quality of meat and animal product and reduce waste. The last of which is of pivotal importance to me, well because if you are going to kill something you darn well better do your best to make sure you're making the most out of it. Call it a measure of respect from one who has helped raise animals for slaughter on occasion.

I am a bit of a loss how you can get lost within a few short sentence. All I can do is expand, but hopefully that will help.

You have a "normal" slaughter house.
You have a "Halal" slaughter house.

Both do exactly the same thing until the actual point of death.

The "normal" slaughter house then stuns the animal
The "halal" slaughter house slits the animals throat.

The "normal" slaughter house then kills the animal in a variety of ways
The "halal" leaves it to hang.

So the only difference is you are cutting an animals throat while it is still concious, and then it must die from blood loss. That can't be fun.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

When talking about religious beliefs and knee-jerk emotional reactions? Dream on

I know, but that thread on the poverty study didn't turn into pages upon pages of political posturing, right? There's still hope.