The Question of Leftist Framentation

[RedRalph]

I agree. But China is not "left" at all. China is a very capitalist country. Do you know how many billionaires there are over there and do you know the gap between the rich and poor over there?

Erm.... I'm talking about the Sino-Soviet split Bast, it happened in the late 60s.

Perhaps, but I can't agree that authoritarianism is the way to go about it. Or violence for that matter. Then again I may simply be an idealist since I want to turn the US into a series of local, loosely affiliated regional communes.

Not neccesarily authoritarianism, but disicpline. Of course Stalin's complete intolerence of even imagined criticism was ridiculous (and counter-productive), but people on the left need to ask themselves is it better to support someone you don't 100% agree with or spend the rest of your life fruitlessly waiting for someone you do 100% agree with?

 

[Winner]

Are some of you politically active or have you experiences with communist/syndicalist/socialist parties? Maybe its just Czech case, but here in the Czech Republic is maybe problem that there is not new flesh blood on left side(thanks God), when Czech green party is quite right wing here. Communist party is stagnate, social democracy waste money on social welfare without reform ideas.

Why fix something that ain't broken?

Or at least that's how the Czech Social Democrats see it - they do purely populist politics, they even admit they're being populist (see how often they refer to the public opinion surveys, as if that was a substitute for a real political programme), but people still vote for them.

This nation really deserves to go under like Argentina or Zimbabwe. I hope I am no longer there when it happens.

 

[REDY]

Why fix something that ain't broken?

Or at least that's how the Czech Social Democrats see it - they do purely populist politics, they even admit they're being populist (see how often they refer to the public opinion surveys, as if that was a substitute for a real political programme), but people still vote for them.

This nation really deserves to go under like Argentina or Zimbabwe. I hope I am no longer there when it happens.

I see some progress in current crisis(not in Social democracy but in their voters), maybe we need something worse.

 

[Elta]

Not even growing the size and scope of the state? Could have foold me...

Believe it or not the goal of the real left is not to arbitrarily grow the size and scope of the state.

 

[onedreamer]

Political fragmentation is one of the most iconic problems of political Leftism. This thread is made to determine the following things:

1. The causes of Leftist political fragmentation
2. If Leftist Unity is the most desirable course of action
3. If Leftist Unity is possible

1.
Implicit in what Left is compared to Right. At the extremes, Left = confrontation, debate, discussion. Right = assimilation and alienation of the diverse (be it thought, appearance, or whatever).

2.
It would deform what the Left really is. See USSR for a good example.

3.
Because of 1) and 2), 3 can never happen.

 

[holy king]

you dont know leftist fragmentation if you dont have a growing group calling themselves "anti-germans".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(communist_current)

 

[Merkinball]

Believe it or not the goal of the real left is not to arbitrarily grow the size and scope of the state.

Well of course it's not arbitrary. It's meaningful, purposeful, and pragmatic. These people aren't idiots.

 

[Ecofarm]

I think the fragmentation is natural. Leftism and rightism are fundamentally inconsistent. On the left, there is social freedom and economic enslavement. On the right, there is social enslavement and economic freedom. That's how I see it, and I'm not gonna argue it; it's why I'm quad 4.

 

[RedRalph]

I think the fragmentation is natural. Leftism and rightism are fundamentally inconsistent. On the left, there is social freedom and economic enslavement. On the right, there is social enslavement and economic freedom. That's how I see it, and I'm not gonna argue it; it's why I'm quad 4.

Do you imagine yourself to not be right-wing?

 

[Ecofarm]

Social left wing (except abortion and gun rights)
Economic right wing (except environmental regulations and development assistance)

There's a few other issues I'm not thinking of at the moment, probably. Now that I think about it, my position on gun rights (de-regulation) should be considered liberal but it generally is not. It's only abortion that I'm socially authoritarian. I have more exceptions in my right-wing economics than my left-wing social policy.

 

[RedRalph]

Social left wing (except abortion and gun rights)
Economic right wing (except environmental regulations and development assistance)

There's a few other issues I'm not thinking of at the moment, probably. Now that I think about it, my position on gun rights (de-regulation) should be considered liberal but it generally is not. It's only abortion that I'm socially authoritarian. I have more exceptions in my right-wing economics than my left-wing social policy.

You want to know what I think?

 

[Ecofarm]

No, thanks.

I'm consistantly anti-government power (anti-authoritarianism), whether to legislate excessive morals or dominate capital. And then we get to foreign policy... where my authoritarianism comes raging forward in defense of human rights. Really, human rights is the only time I will violate my anti-authority stance. Minimal regulations and property ownership by the state is, of course, necessary.

I see abortion, environmental pollution and world-development as human rights issues.

 

[RedRalph]

No, thanks.

Can't argue with that!

 

[Ecofarm]

I know you are going to give me the old "but more state control means greater freedom" routine, and it is true to a minimum extent both socially and economically.



If you disagree then you are probably irrational.

 

[RedRalph]

I know you are going to give me the old "but more state control means greater freedom" routine, and it is true to a minimum extent both socially and economically.



If you disagree then you are probably irrational.

I was going to tell you what I think about you and your politics

 

[Ecofarm]

You were going to tell who? I don't see a PM.

 

[RedRalph]

You were going to tell who? I don't see a PM.

Everyone, in open discussion. It wasnt going to be an insult

 

[REDY]

I am interested, in Scandinavia I would probably vote social democrats.
Ecofarms thoughts are compatibile with my. Well with exception of ecology/environmentalism, thats probably big deal for him.

 

[Ecofarm]

What's moderating your economic compass score then? Weeping for the poor folk in a rich land? If you are in India, I can understand the welfare more.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

you dont know leftist fragmentation if you dont have a growing group calling themselves "anti-germans".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(communist_current)

Antideutsch?