The Question of Leftist Framentation

You think Wilson was a progressive? :lmao: Wilson's administration was a fascistoid, racist monstrosity.

You place, Merk, is beside the rest of the working class: heirs to the world. You think that we would do nothing for the average joe, but it is in fact the average joe for whom we fight. There are only a small minority of the population who are real enemies of the rest of us, whose concerns are not those of the poorer working classes, who are milking the many for the benefit of their few.

As for the "pragmatic and statist" nature of these groups, I've never seen them, and I suspect I'm more involved than you are with them and their members. The CPUSA, for example, is a Marxist-Leninist organization, but their platforms are borderline libertarian-socialist. The Party and I are nearly of one mind, the uniqueness of this circumstance is why I joined. The Socialist Party preaches similarly libertarian ideas; no need to question the anti-authoritarian nature of the Anarchists. The only pro-big-government ones I see are the parliamentary socialists and the Green parties, and honestly I don't expect much from the former as they are de facto capitalists and the latter are more often than not single-plank parties whose votes or support can be rounded up by addressing the things they take issue with, and possibly by adopting their answers also. But the only matter they're really pro-government on is environmental regulation, in many other ways they support grass-roots organization, community involvement, and a general libertarian mindset, not unlike the socialist parties.

It should be noted that I use the lowercase "libertarian" to mean the opposite of authoritarian, which is top-down decision-making (meaning, its classic sense), which is different from capitalized "Libertarian," the rightist Neo-Liberal ideology we popularly associate with the term today.

Before the debate on small vs. big government, America's national debt problem should be resolved before 'empowering' the workers, proletariat, etc.
I think all on the left, in the event of a successful revolution (highly improbable, that is) is how the heck is it going to participate in a capitalist world? What about the economy? What would the nation's economic structure be under a united Leftist Government? (And please no more Stalinism, it never going to work)
 
Not really.

Well, fine, where are the powerful elements of the left? I of course mean relatively powerful, after all, nobody would insinuate a Marxian that has authored numerous books to have as much power as a CEO, so lets get that out of the way

Geography has nothing to do with anything. And we aren't talking about an intelligentsia, here, we are far weaker than that.

Not so much geography in terms of living in another town, more so in working at another university.



Yep, I haven't seen many leftists practicing what they preach. I come to the conclusion that most are hypocrites.

I can't think of anyone who is against profits. But as you'll note, Chomsky has no magnificent fortune, its really quite minuscule for someone whose written as many books as he has and worked at a top US university for God knows how many years.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/2912626.html

History and Culture:
Noam Chomsky, Closet Capitalist

By Peter Schweizer

Chomsky talks an anti-capitalist game, but what does he practice? Market economics at their most profitable. By Peter Schweizer.

One of the most persistent themes in Noam Chomsky’s work has been class warfare. He has frequently lashed out against the “massive use of tax havens to shift the burden to the general population and away from the rich” and criticized the concentration of wealth in “trusts” by the wealthiest 1 percent. The American tax code is rigged with “complicated devices for ensuring that the poor—like 80 percent of the population—pay off the rich.”

But trusts can’t be all bad. After all, Chomsky, with a net worth north of $2,000,000, decided to create one for himself. A few years back he went to Boston’s venerable white-shoe law firm, Palmer and Dodge, and, with the help of a tax attorney specializing in “income-tax planning,” set up an irrevocable trust to protect his assets from Uncle Sam. He named his tax attorney (every socialist radical needs one!) and a daughter as trustees. To the Diane Chomsky Irrevocable Trust (named for another daughter) he has assigned the copyright of several of his books, including multiple international editions.

Chomsky favors the estate tax and massive income redistribution—just not the redistribution of his income. No reason to let radical politics get in the way of sound estate planning.

When I challenged Chomsky about his trust, he suddenly started to sound very bourgeois: “I don’t apologize for putting aside money for my children and grandchildren,” he wrote in one e-mail. Chomsky offered no explanation for why he condemns others who are equally proud of their provision for their children and who try to protect their assets from Uncle Sam. Although he did say that the tax shelter is okay because he and his family are “trying to help suffering people.”

Indeed, Chomsky is rich precisely because he has been such an enormously successful capitalist. Despite the anti-profit rhetoric, like any other corporate capitalist he has turned himself into a brand name. As John Lloyd puts it, writing critically in the lefty New Statesman, Chomsky is among those “open to being ‘commodified’—that is, to being simply one of the many wares of a capitalist media market place, in a way that the badly paid and overworked writers and journalists for the revolutionary parties could rarely be.”

Chomsky’s business works something like this. He gives speeches on college campuses around the country at $12,000 a pop, often dozens of times a year.

Can’t go and hear him in person? No problem: you can go online and download clips from earlier speeches—for a fee. You can hear Chomsky talk for one minute about “Property Rights”; it will cost you 79 cents. You can also buy a CD with clips from previous speeches for $12.99.

But books are Chomsky’s mainstay, and on the international market he has become a publishing phenomenon. The Chomsky brand means instant sales. As publicist Dana O’Hare of Pluto Press explains: “All we have to do is put Chomsky’s name on a book and it sells out immediately!”

Putting his name on a book should not be confused with writing a book because his most recent volumes are mainly transcriptions of speeches, or interviews that he has conducted over the years, put between covers and sold to the general public. You might call it multi-level marketing for radicals. Chomsky has admitted as much: “If you look at the things I write—articles for Z Magazine, or books for South End Press, or whatever—they are mostly based on talks and meetings and that kind of thing. But I’m kind of a parasite. I mean, I’m living off the activism of others. I’m happy to do it.”

Chomsky’s marketing efforts shortly after September 11 give new meaning to the term war profiteer. In the days after the tragedy, he raised his speaking fee from $9,000 to $12,000 because he was suddenly in greater demand.

He also cashed in by producing another instant book. Seven Stories Press, a small publisher, pulled together interviews conducted via e-mail that Chomsky gave in the three weeks following the attack on the Twin Towers and rushed the book to press. His controversial views were hot, particularly overseas. By early December 2001, the pushlisher had sold the foreign rights in 19 different languages. The book made the best-seller list in the United States, Canada, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, and New Zealand. It is safe to assume that he netted hundreds of thousands of dollars from this book alone.

Over the years, Chomsky has been particularly critical of private property rights, which he considers simply a tool of the rich, of no benefit to ordinary people. “When property rights are granted to power and privilege, it can be expected to be harmful to most,” Chomsky wrote on a discussion board for the Washington Post. Intellectual property rights are equally despicable. According to Chomsky, for example, drug companies who have spent hundreds of millions of dollars developing drugs shouldn’t have ownership rights to patents. Intellectual property rights, he argues, “have to do with protectionism.”

Protectionism is a bad thing—especially when it relates to other people. But when it comes to Chomsky’s own published work, this advocate of open intellectual property suddenly becomes very selfish. It would not be advisable to download the audio from one of his speeches without paying the fee, warns his record company, Alternative Tentacles. (Did Andrei Sakharov have a licensing agreement with a record company?) And when it comes to his articles, you’d better keep your hands off. Go to the official Noam Chomsky website (www.chomsky.info) and the warning is clear: “Material on this site is copyrighted by Noam Chomsky and/or Noam Chomsky and his collaborators. No material on this site may be reprinted or posted on other web sites without written permission.” However, the website does give you the opportunity to “sublicense” the material if you are interested.

Radicals used to think of their ideas as weapons; Chomsky sees them as a licensing opportunity.

Chomsky has even gone the extra mile to protect the copyright to some of his material by transferring ownership to his children. Profits from those works will thus be taxed at his children’s lower rate. He also extends the length of time that the family is able to hold onto the copyright and protect his intellectual assets.

In October 2002, radicals gathered in Philadelphia for a benefit entitled “Noam Chomsky: Media and Democracy.” Sponsored by the Greater Philadelphia Democratic Left, for a fee of $15 you could attend the speech and hear the great man ruminate on the evils of capitalism. For another $35, you could attend a post-talk reception and he would speak directly with you.

During the speech, Chomsky told the assembled crowd, “A democracy requires a free, independent, and inquiring media.” After the speech, Deborah Bolling, a writer for the lefty Philadelphia City Paper, tried to get an interview with Chomsky. She was turned away. To talk to Chomsky, she was told, this “free, independent, and inquiring” reporter needed to pay $35 to get into the private reception.

Corporate America is one of Chomsky’s demons. It’s hard to find anything positive he might say about American business. He paints an ominous vision of America suffering under the “unaccountable and deadly rule of corporations.” He has called corporations “private tyrannies” and declared that they are “just as totalitarian as Bolshevism and fascism.” Capitalism, in his words, is a “grotesque catastrophe.”

But a funny thing happened on the way to the retirement portfolio.

Chomsky, for all of his moral dudgeon against American corporations, finds that they make a pretty good investment. When he made investment decisions for his retirement plan at MIT, he chose not to go with a money market fund or even a government bond fund. Instead, he threw the money into blue chips and invested in the TIAA-CREF stock fund. A look at the stock fund portfolio quickly reveals that it invests in all sorts of businesses that Chomsky says he finds abhorrent: oil companies, military contractors, pharmaceuticals, you name it.

When I asked Chomsky about his investment portfolio he reverted to a “what else can I do?” defense: “Should I live in a cabin in Montana?” he asked. It was a clever rhetorical dodge. Chomsky was declaring that there is simply no way to avoid getting involved in the stock market short of complete withdrawal from the capitalist system. He certainly knows better. There are many alternative funds these days that allow you to invest your money in “green” or “socially responsible” enterprises. They just don’t yield the maximum available return.
This essay is adapted from the author’s new book Do As I Say (Not As I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy (Doubleday, 2005). Available from the Hoover Press is The Fall of the Berlin Wall, edited by Peter Schweizer. To order, call 800.935.2882 or visit www.hooverpress.org.

Peter Schweizer is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution. He has served as a consultant to NBC News and as a member of the Ultra Terrorism Study Group at the U.S. Government's Sandia National Laboratory. He and his wife, Rochelle Schweizer, wrote The Bushes: Profile of a Dynasty, which theNew York Times called "the best" of the books on the Bush family. His other books include Do as I Say (Not as I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy and Reagan's War: The Epic Story of His Forty-Year Struggle and Final Triumph over Communism.
 
Yep, I haven't seen many leftists practicing what they preach. I come to the conclusion that most are hypocrites.

It's probably kinda hard for people to actually change existing laws and enact new legislation when they're, you know, not in power. So they can hardly be called hypocrites for not doing so.

@Cheezy- I'm curious. Where exactly is the line in the sand that who would compromise up to, but not passed?
 
Another question whose answer we must be united around is the conquest of power itself. Is revolution acceptable? Is it the only way to end Capitalism? Is the only way that Capitalism should be ended?

This is where I differ I think from most of the harder Commies. I find myself closest ideologically with the Socialist Party USA despite being a registered Democrat, and it disavows violence and revolution as a tool. It seeks through non-violent means bring an end to capitalism.

I think ideally everyone should do what I do. Join the Democratic Party. Let's face it, if we disavow violence, we have to use one of the mainstream parties to advance our agenda. I am far to the left of every member of the local Democrats. But by being a member of a mainstream party I am able to advance my views, reach a wider audience, have access to more resources that I wouldn't have. A large scale infusion of people like me can help push the Democrats further to the left. Vote for left Democrats like Kucinich or Gravel before he went and swung right. This is the real way to do it.
 
It's probably kinda hard for people to actually change existing laws and enact new legislation when they're, you know, not in power. So they can hardly be called hypocrites for not doing so.

@Cheezy- I'm curious. Where exactly is the line in the sand that who would compromise up to, but not passed?

Take my Noam Chomsky example above. He "hates" intellectual property, yet exploits it . The non-hypocritical thing to do would be to release his works into the public domain.
 
Or better, join the GOP. If we can force the Republicans to the far left, then the 'right-wing' party will be the Democrats, who would surely be better to have on the right-wing than the Republicans.

I don't think its possible. The GOP is filling fast with crazy fundies, evangelicals, far-right xenophobes, racists, fascist's and other unsavory sorts. Beside's we have some beliefs and values in common with the Democrats, but share absolutely nothing, nothing at all with the Republicans. The Democrats can be worked with, but the GOP needs to be destroyed.
 
Beside's we have some beliefs and values in common with the Democrats, but share absolutely nothing, nothing at all with the Republicans. - Karalysia

Not even growing the size and scope of the state? Could have foold me...
 
I don't think its possible. The GOP is filling fast with crazy fundies, evangelicals, far-right xenophobes, racists, fascist's and other unsavory sorts. Beside's we have some beliefs and values in common with the Democrats, but share absolutely nothing, nothing at all with the Republicans. The Democrats can be worked with, but the GOP needs to be destroyed.

Destroy from within? :dunno:

Or we could just all pose as really crazy people to accelerate an implosion.
 
To refine what I've said before in the social group and to borrow something from a liberal philosopher, I think the future of the left-wing lies in its ability to find and work within an overlapping consensus. That is to say in forging an alliance from things that can be broadly agreed to.

The action-oriented nature of Marxism lends itself to this, since you would be able to find plenty of allies to fight for certain causes. Whether you will agree with them years down the road is a question better left largely unanswered. Who knows what the future will bring? Better work on the present than end up doing nothing at all. After all, we don't go about our business constantly planning for and worrying over whether our friends and family would betray us tomorrow, even if they don't think exactly like we do.

Plus, lets face it, most on the left are hypocrites. I don't see any of them forgoing the profits they make in writing. Chomsky is an example of that.

Then you only have a surface understanding of left-wing thought. The left is not against you enjoying the fruits of your labour. In fact, its main issue is with the fact that capitalists prevent workers from fully enjoying the fruits of their labour (i.e. exploit the workers). I think the need for public ownership of the means of production is to take them away from the exploitative capitalist and put them in the hands of the workers who actually do the producing.

That somehow the conclusion of all this has been interpreted as to take away the fruits of the workers' labour and redistribute them is I think an issue, and probably a problem, that needs to be examined closely.
 
Point is, change into what? There's a lot of bickering over that point.

Most of the bickering is over the path traveled, not the end destination. The problem here is that many get stuck in the same old authoritarian style of thinking which is antithetical to the goals of socialism (given that authority is required in order to exploit others; we want to abolish exploitation and therefore must abolish authority). Speaking as a communist, coexistence with other libertarians is tolerable, though it is of course my opinion that, following the revolution, communism would be shown to be a more practical economic system.

I think ideally everyone should do what I do. Join the Democratic Party. Let's face it, if we disavow violence, we have to use one of the mainstream parties to advance our agenda. I am far to the left of every member of the local Democrats. But by being a member of a mainstream party I am able to advance my views, reach a wider audience, have access to more resources that I wouldn't have. A large scale infusion of people like me can help push the Democrats further to the left. Vote for left Democrats like Kucinich or Gravel before he went and swung right. This is the real way to do it.

Labor started out "socialist" (in a similar sense to SPUSA) and turned into a rightist party. The Democrats started out conservative, I doubt you're going to turn them socialist.
 
Yeah, it's a real shame and a serious problem. And I do think it is somehow tied to leftism, because it just doesn't happen as much on the right.

I think to some degree it's because a lot the left today definies itself by what its opposed to instead of what it's for. As a result of that, there is rarely a single agreed idea of what is desirable, people can all agree 'we hate Bush', 'big business is harming the environment', 'the religious right and nutcases' etc, but there are no agreed set of goals anymore. That's why I'm more inclined towards authoritarianism, not because I like the idea of people being bossed around but because at the present moment in time it's the only way to get things done. I don't like everything Chavez does, I don't agree with everything the SWP in Ireland does, I don't agree with everything Noam Chomsky says, I don't agree with everything Marx said, but lets face it, at this point in history the left is not strong enough to engage in navel-gazing and nitpicking over insignificant points.

Economically, right-wing people can afford to bicker over details, because in the end it really doesn't matter, things are broadly how the right wants them to be economically, so if Obama gets his healthcare system in place, whuile it may drive dimwitted rightist knuckledraggers into a McCarthyist frenzy, most rightists with half a brain will shrug their shoulders and get over it because they know it doesn't challenge the status quo one tiny bit. They can afford to let the little things go.

The left, on the other hand, can't see that it cant afford NOT to let the little things go, because we just aren't strong enough to split over the piddly crap.

I think after the low point of the 90s, things are slowly heading in our direction again, and would do so much more if we could just get it together, put aside the squabbling and seize the opportunities where they come up.

PS I always thought the most tragically laughable example of leftist splitting was when the Chinese accused the USSR of being too friendly with the west and reacted by having Nixon over a few years later...
 
I think after the low point of the 90s, things are slowly heading in our direction again, and would do so much more if we could just get it together, put aside the squabbling and seize the opportunities where they come up.

I don't know, the people have been brainwashed. We just had a massive economic crash and recession as people discovered the capitalist economy was nothing more than smoke and mirrors, but then very little happened after that. How many bankers were punished? Were banks nationalized? Insurance companies? Nope. We scapegoated a few companies and some individuals like Madoff and that's about it.
 
I don't know, the people have been brainwashed. We just had a massive economic crash and recession as people discovered the capitalist economy was nothing more than smoke and mirrors, but then very little happened after that. How many bankers were punished? Were banks nationalized? Insurance companies? Nope. We scapegoated a few companies and some individuals like Madoff and that's about it.

Exactly, because there is so much fragmentation. It was the perfect opportunity to make a real change and it was/is/maybe it isn't lost. Nothing happene din the western world bar a few isolated examples, but South America is very clearly heading in the right direction...
 
Yeah, it's a real shame and a serious problem. And I do think it is somehow tied to leftism, because it just doesn't happen as much on the right.

I think to some degree it's because a lot the left today definies itself by what its opposed to instead of what it's for. As a result of that, there is rarely a single agreed idea of what is desirable, people can all agree 'we hate Bush', 'big business is harming the environment', 'the religious right and nutcases' etc, but there are no agreed set of goals anymore. That's why I'm more inclined towards authoritarianism, not because I like the idea of people being bossed around but because at the present moment in time it's the only way to get things done. I don't like everything Chavez does, I don't agree with everything the SWP in Ireland does, I don't agree with everything Noam Chomsky says, I don't agree with everything Marx said, but lets face it, at this point in history the left is not strong enough to engage in navel-gazing and nitpicking over insignificant points.

Economically, right-wing people can afford to bicker over details, because in the end it really doesn't matter, things are broadly how the right wants them to be economically, so if Obama gets his healthcare system in place, whuile it may drive dimwitted rightist knuckledraggers into a McCarthyist frenzy, most rightists with half a brain will shrug their shoulders and get over it because they know it doesn't challenge the status quo one tiny bit. They can afford to let the little things go.

The left, on the other hand, can't see that it cant afford NOT to let the little things go, because we just aren't strong enough to split over the piddly crap.

I think after the low point of the 90s, things are slowly heading in our direction again, and would do so much more if we could just get it together, put aside the squabbling and seize the opportunities where they come up.

PS I always thought the most tragically laughable example of leftist splitting was when the Chinese accused the USSR of being too friendly with the west and reacted by having Nixon over a few years later...


I agree. But China is not "left" at all. China is a very capitalist country. Do you know how many billionaires there are over there and do you know the gap between the rich and poor over there? :confused:
 
In this country at least, it's the right wing who is fragmented. The lefties have two parties (the Communist party and the Communist party light, aka the Social Democrats) and a strange form of coexistence - when one screws up, the voters vote for the second one, so few votes are lost for the left.

The right wing is fragmented into half a dozen parties. The big one is too conservative and too eurosceptic so many liberal right-wingers avoid it like the plague, but at the same time there is no alternative because the liberal right is usually divided into a number of smaller parties, few of them with even a slight chance of breaking the 5% limit to enter the chamber of deputies.

Which is why we're going to hell. If the country doesn't go bankrupt in the next 20 years, we'll be lucky. The left is absolutely irresponsible, the only thing they managed was to steadily increase our national debt in the period of booming economy. Kinda like the American conservatives, just worse.
 
Exactly, because there is so much fragmentation. It was the perfect opportunity to make a real change and it was/is/maybe it isn't lost. Nothing happene din the western world bar a few isolated examples, but South America is very clearly heading in the right direction...

Perhaps, but I can't agree that authoritarianism is the way to go about it. Or violence for that matter. Then again I may simply be an idealist since I want to turn the US into a series of local, loosely affiliated regional communes.
 
Are some of you politically active or have you experiences with communist/syndicalist/socialist parties? Maybe its just Czech case, but here in the Czech Republic is maybe problem that there is not new flesh blood on left side(thanks God), when Czech green party is quite right wing here. Communist party is stagnate, social democracy waste money on social welfare without reform ideas.
 
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