The Resurrection- How do you refute it?

Originally posted by Halcyon
I thought I explained that adequately. Isn't it still creationism if you believe that the world and its denizens were created, but not by a deity? As such, you'd be an atheist creationist if you believed that..

Honestly its just semantics, if there was a being powerful enough to create the universe, world, and its denziens, it would pretty much fall under the definition of a deity.

And as a side note just fyi CREATIONISM as a term defines ONE christian view of the creation of the world, a very fundamentalist one which states that the world was created in one literal day, obviously at the extreme end of the spectrum even for believers.
 
"Are you saying that someone or something 'started' life, then it evolved into what it is now? If that someone wasnt God, but some other lifeform, how did that lifeform start?"

I do not know how life started, there are some theories I am familiar with, but there is no reliable basis to conclude anything at all about how life started. I'm comfortable enough with the concept of not knowing something so it doesn't matter. It certainly has no bearing on evolution, anyway.

"So you dont believe in evolution? nor in God? Please explain."
I think evolution makes perfect sense. It's a logically sound proposition, given what we know about the way organisms reproduce with variations from generation to generation. It's practically a given. God however, makes no sense from practically any perspective.
 
Why is it that so many athiests are convinced that there isn't a god? There is no proof of one, but that does not mean that one cannot exist, simply because we cannot prove that there is a supernatural being.

I do understand the argument that the chance of any one religion being correct are extremely low, but why is it that many athiests believe that there must not be a god if there's no proof either way?
 
Originally posted by polymath
"Are you saying that someone or something 'started' life, then it evolved into what it is now? If that someone wasnt God, but some other lifeform, how did that lifeform start?"

I do not know how life started, there are some theories I am familiar with, but there is no reliable basis to conclude anything at all about how life started. I'm comfortable enough with the concept of not knowing something so it doesn't matter. It certainly has no bearing on evolution, anyway.

"So you dont believe in evolution? nor in God? Please explain."
I think evolution makes perfect sense. It's a logically sound proposition, given what we know about the way organisms reproduce with variations from generation to generation. It's practically a given. God however, makes no sense from practically any perspective.

Ok so you are just differentiating between evolution as the ongoing process of adaption and survival of the fittest as being seperate from the spontaneous generation of life from a primordial soup of particles, I understand what you mean.

As I mentioned before it is interesting to look up some info on the various steps involved in such a generation and their probabilites, when something has a chance happening that is greater than the number of all the atoms of all the matter in the universe, I find that to fall under the definition of 'implausible'
 
Originally posted by Bootstoots
Why is it that so many athiests are convinced that there isn't a god? There is no proof of one, but that does not mean that one cannot exist, simply because we cannot prove that there is a supernatural being.

I do understand the argument that the chance of any one religion being correct are extremely low, but why is it that many athiests believe that there must not be a god if there's no proof either way?

The same reason the other side is convinced there is a God, it justifies their way of life and gives them pride and self assurance in 'knowing' they are correct.

The greeks called it 'Hubris' my friend.
 
Or perhaps the same reason why most people believe all sorts of things, such as that the earth is round and that white light is a mixture of different wavelengths of a narrow band of electromagnetic radiation. It's the best available explaination when it coms to fitting the observable facts. No illusions of superiority are necessary when forming such simple conclusions.

Oh, answer me this, 'Bootstoots':

Why is it that so many believers are convinced that there is a god? There is no proof of one, but that does not mean that one does exist, simply because we cannot prove that there is not a supernatural being.

I do understand the argument that the chance of any religion being correct are extremely low, but why is it that many believers believe that there must be a god if there's no proof either way?
 
@Bootstoots
I have absolutely no reason to believe in a God. Why on Earth should I?, is the more pertinent question.

edited to add: The same goes for believing in the resurrection. Why should I? There's no reason to.
 
Written by a fellow with a Phd, Joseph Mastropaolo and while the naysayers will try to say well he is 'just some christian with an agenda' the quotes are all there from all the 'giants' of the evolutionary machine

Evolutionists currently invoke the "primeval soup" to expand the "warm little pond" into a larger venue, the oceans. They aim to spontaneously generate the first cell so they must thicken the salt water with (take a breath) polysaccharides, lipids, amino acids, alpha helixes, polypeptide chains, assembled quaternary protein subunits, and nucleotides, all poised to self-combine into functional cellular structures, energy systems, long-chain proteins and nucleic acids.4Then during an electrical storm, just the right mix of DNA, mRNA, ribosomes, cell membranes and enzymes are envisioned in the right place at the right time and the first cell is thunderbolted together and springs to life.5 That marvelous first cell, the story goes, filled the oceans with progeny competing in incredible polysaccharide, lipid, amino acid, nucleotide, and cannibalistic feasts. The predators thereby thinned the soup to the watery oceans we have today while the prey escaped by mystically transmuting themselves into the current complex animals and plants, or perhaps vice versa because no one was there to record it. We are assured by the disciples of Darwin and Huxley that the "once upon a pond" story to obtain a blob of protoplasm is still sufficient for the spontaneous generation of the cell as we know it today. All demur when asked for evidence. All balk when asked to reverse-engineer a cell in the laboratory in spite of the fact that laboratories rival nature and reverse engineering is orders of magnitude easier than engineering an original design. One wonders why they balk if cell stuff is so easily self-generated and carbon molecules seem to have such an innate tendency to self-combine.

To test simply the alleged self-combining tendency of carbon, I placed one microliter of India (lampblack) ink in 27 ml. of distilled water. The ink streaked for the bottom of the test tube where it formed a dark haze which completely diffused to an even shade of gray in 14 hours. The carbon stayed diffused, not aggregated as when dropped on paper. At this simple level, there is no evidence that the "primeval soup" is anything but fanciful imagination.

In science, the burden of evidence is on the proposer of the theory. So although the evolutionists have the burden of providing evidence for their fanciful tales, they take no responsibility for a detailed account or for any evidence demonstrating feasibility. Contrarily, they go so far as to imply that anyone holding them to the normal requirements of science is feebleminded, deranged, or evil. For example, Professor Richard Dawkins has been quoted as saying, "It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)."6 Instead of taking proper responsibility for the burden of evidence, the evolutionist propagandizes by the intimidation of name calling.

To set a better example, let us take up the evolutionist's burden of evidence to see where it leads. Our first observation is that apparently all functions in a living organism are based largely upon the structures of its proteins. The trail of the first cell therefore leads us to the microbiological geometry of amino acids and a search for the probability of creating a protein by mindless chance as specified by evolution. Hubert Yockey published a monograph on the microbiology, information theory, and mathematics necessary to accomplish that feat. Accordingly, the probability of evolving one molecule of iso-1-cytochrome c, a small protein common in plants and animals, is an astounding one chance in 2.3 times ten billion vigintillion. The magnitude of this impossibility may be appreciated by realizing that ten billion vigintillion is one followed by 75 zeros. Or to put it in evolutionary terms, if a random mutation is provided every second from the alleged birth of the universe, then to date that protein molecule would be only 43% of the way to completion. Yockey concluded, "The origin of life by chance in a primeval soup is impossible in probability in the same way that a perpetual motion machine is impossible in probability."7

Richard Dawkins implicitly agreed with Yockey by stating, "Suppose we want to suggest, for instance, that life began when both DNA and its protein-based replication machinery spontaneously chanced to come into existence. We can allow ourselves the luxury of such an extravagant theory, provided that the odds against this coincidence occurring on a planet do not exceed 100 billion billion to one."8The 100 billion billion is 1020. So Dawkins' own criterion for impossible in probability, one chance in more than 1020, has been exceeded by 50 orders of magnitude for only one molecule of one small protein. Now that Professor Dawkins has joined the ranks of non-believers in evolution, politesse forbids inquiring whether he considers himself "ignorant, stupid, insane, or wicked."

Let us proceed to criteria more stringent. For example, Borel stated that phenomena with very small probabilities do not occur. He settled arbitrarily on the probability of one chance in 1050 as that small probability. Again according to this more stringent criterion, we see that evolving one molecule of one protein would not occur by a wide margin, this time 25 orders of magnitude.9

Let us go further. According to Dembski, Borel did not adequately distinguish those highly improbable events properly attributed to chance from those properly attributed to something else and Borel did not clarify what concrete numerical values correspond to small probabilities. So Dembski repaired those deficiencies and formulated a criterion so stringent that it jolts the mind. He estimated 1080 elementary particles in the universe and asked how many times per second an event could occur. He found 1045. He then calculated the number of seconds from the beginning of the universe to the present and for good measure multiplied by one billion for 1025 seconds in all. He thereby obtained 1080 x 1045 x 1025 = 10150 for his Law of Small Probability.9

I have not been able to find a criterion more stringent than Dembski's one chance in 10150. Anything as rare as that probability had absolutely no possibility of happening by chance at any time by any conceivable specifying agent by any conceivable process throughout all of cosmic history. And if the specified event is not a regularity, as the origin of life is not, and if it is not chance, as Dembski's criterion and Yockey's probability may prove it is not, then it must have happened by design, the only remaining possibility.

Now to return to the probability of evolving one molecule of one protein as one chance in 1075, we see that it does not satisfy Dembski's criterion of one chance in 10150. The simultaneous availability of two molecules of one protein may satisfy the criterion, but they would be far from the necessary complement to create a living cell. For a minimal cell, 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations would be needed.5,10 If these raw materials could be evolved at the same time, and if they were not more complex on average to evolve than the iso-1-cytochrome c molecule, and if these proteins were stacked at the cell's construction site, then we may make a gross underestimation of what the chances would be to evolve that first cell. That probability is one chance in more than 104,478,296, a number that numbs the mind because it has 4,478,296 zeros. If we consider one chance in 10150 as the standard for impossible, then the evolution of the first cell is more than 104,478,146 times more impossible in probability than that standard.

Reproduction may be called a regularity because billions of people have witnessed billions of new individuals arising that way, and in no other way, for thousands of years. The origin of life was a unique event and certainly not a regularity. Therefore, according to mathematical logicians, the only possibilities left are that life either was generated by chance or by deliberate design. The standard for impossible events eliminated evolution so the only remaining possibility is that life was designed into existence. The probability of the correctness of this conclusion is the inverse of the probability that eliminated evolution, that is, 104,478,296 chances to one.

Although the certainty of design has been demonstrated beyond doubt, science cannot identify the designer. Given a designer with the intelligence to construct a cell and all life forms, it is not logical that he would construct only one cell and leave the rest to chance. The only logical possibility is that the designer would design and build the entire structure, the entire biosphere, to specified perfection. That seems to be as far as science can go.

Life was designed. It did not evolve. The certainty of these conclusions is 104,478,296 (1 followed by 4,478,296 zeros) to one. This evidence suggests a Designer who designed and built the entire biosphere and, for it to function, the entire universe. Primary and secondary sources from history properly provide additional information on the Designer because the biological sciences are not equal to that task.

References
1 Darwin, F., ed (1888) The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, London: John Murray, vol. 3, p. 18.
2 Shelley, Mary W. (1831) Frankenstein: or, The Modern Prometheus, London: Henry Colburn and Richard Bentley, Introduction, p. 9.
3 Huxley, Thomas H. (1870) "Biogenesis and Abiogenesis" in (1968) Collected Essays of Thomas H. Huxley, vol. 8, Discourses Biological and Gelogical, New York: Greenwood Press, p. 256.
4 Behe, Michael J. (1996) Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, New York: Touchstone, pp. 262-268.
5 Denton, Michael (1986) Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Bethesda, Maryland: Adler & Adler, p. 263.
6 Johnson, Phillip E. (1993) Darwin On Trial, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, p. 9.
7 Yockey, Hubert P. (1992) Information Theory and Molecular Biology, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 255, 257.
8 Dawkins, Richard (1996) The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design, New York: W.W. Norton & Co., p. 146.
9 Dembski, William A. (1998) The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 5,209,210.
10 Morowitz, H. J. (1966) "The Minimum Size of Cells" in Principles of Biomolecular Organization, eds. G.E.W. Wostenholme and M. O'Connor, London: J.A. Churchill, pp. 446-459.

* Dr. Mastropaolo
 
You're quite correct that noone actually understands how the hell life started. Unfortunately, that's not a reason to assume intelligent design, only a reason to try to work out how life started.
 
Joseph Mastropaolo is clearly a self-serving mutt. Evolution MAKES NO CLAIMS about how life began. But he still says:
"Life was designed. It did not evolve."
Yet his article has nothing to do with evolution. He's a classic straw-man loon.
 
Richard Dawkins on Mastropaolo:


".....My own most bizarre invitation, and the most transparently publicity-hungry, is dated August 2002.

Dear Dr. Dawkins:

.. Do you really believe in evolutionism? If so, on behalf of Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo I present you with the following challenge.

This is the announcement of the Life Science Prize. The rules are like those for a prize sporting event: the winner takes all.

The evolutionist contestant puts $10,000 in escrow. This will be matched by a creation scientist for a total of $20,000.
If the evolutionist proves evolution is science and creation is religion he wins the $20,000. If the creation scientist proves that creation is science and evolution is religion, then he collects the $20,000.

The standards of evidence will be those of science: objectivity, validity, reliability and calibration. The preponderance of the evidence prevails.

Please contact me as soon as possible and we shall begin working out the details for the debate.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Karl Priest

Who, I wondered, was "Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo"? Evidently a personage so grand that somebody else writes his letters for him. Or was Priest/Mastropaolo a Jekyll and Hyde figure, named Mastropaolo but with a fantasy of becoming a priest? For reasons I have already explained, I had not the slightest intention of accepting his (their?) ridiculous challenge, but I thought I might have some fun before ending the correspondence. With hindsight, that might have been a time-wasting mistake.

Although I wondered in passing about "calibration," I noted that the standards of evidence would be those of science. I therefore made the innocent suggestion that the judging panel should consist of distinguished scientists, to be nominated by the National Academy of Sciences, the Royal Society, and Nobel Prize winners. Needless to say, I would never have dreamed of troubling these august bodies with such a silly request. If Priest/Mastropaolo had possessed even a grain of intelligence, he could easily have called my bluff. But of course he did not. Instead (this time beginning his letter as plain Mastropaolo but still signing off as Priest) he accused me of trying to rig the judging process, and ended with ringing defiance:

If your objective is to stack the jury with evolutionists that will vote you the winner no matter what evidence is presented, then count yourself in default on this challenge. Which is it?

Priest/Mastropaolo won't let it drop, and he goes on challenging me, with increasing belligerence, to accept or "default." At one point I told him I might publish the correspondence for amusement, and received the following truculent permission to do so:

Be sure you publish the following (and you may sign my name): You, Dr. Dawkins are an intellectual coward. You are scared to defend your faith in evolutionism on a level playing field. You have defaulted out of fear.

I promised that I would indeed publish his words (I just have). I reminded him that it was he who refused to submit a scientific question to the judgment of the world's leading scientists, and I added a further constructive suggestion:

... science keeps its playing field level by the rather admirable system of anonymous peer-review. If you have evidence that evolution is false, you are entirely at liberty to submit a paper to the editor of Nature, or Science, or the Journal of Theoretical Biology, or the American Naturalist, or Biological Reviews, or the Quarterly Review of Biology, or any of hundreds of other reputable journals in which ordinary working scientists publish their research. Do not fear that editors will reject it simply because it opposes evolution. On the contrary, the journal that published a paper which really did discover a fallacy in evolution, or convincing evidence against it, would have the scoop of the century, in scientific terms. Editors would kill to get their hands on it.

This challenge by me has-of course-- gone unanswered. On my side the correspondence is terminated, although Priest/Mastropaolo went on bombarding me weekly with i23, no. 1 (Winter 2002/2003): p. 12-14ncreasingly raucous accusations of cowardice. He reminds me of the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who continued, as a stump-waving, blood-spouting torso, to shout "Running away, eh? ... Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!" at the indifferent back of the opponent who had successively deprived him of all four limbs...."
 
Faced with hard numbers and 'scientific' method proponents of evolution resort to that old standby, confuse, obsfucate, condemn, demean, lie.....sort of reminds me of the good old catholic church in centuries past.

The harsh truth is that many of your 'educated' who you will find ranting against the existance of God here are not as 'educated' as their smooth talk would have you believe. Most of them have had a bad experience with religion (who hasn't) or they rightly see religion as the root of many of the worlds evils. None of them
are microbiologists, I doubt if any have a Ph D or two after their names.

What happens is this, these individuals have a worldview and life experience that makes them extremely, and in many cases rightly so, hostile towards religion, then higher education fills their mind with 'facts' that are not facts at all, quite the contrary. Like the typical parishioner in the Sunday pew, they soak up all that their 'priest' spews out, never thinking for themselves. Its not so much that these people are mentally lazy or incapabable of doing their own research, its that the idea of life originating spontaneously with no need for a creator dances in step withtheir worldview.

If you have any kind of an open mind while you have been reading the rantings going on here in this thread, I hope you can see the one common bond that both fanatical christians and the fanatical atheist share, and that is a narrowminded, dogmatic, stubborn as hell adherence to what they know is right, no matter that it is improvable. Thats not the bad part, the worst thing is their absolutely vile hatred and contempt for the other side.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and a closed mind is already wasted.
 
Originally posted by aaminion00
Your poor attempt at sarcasm is sadly wasted. Historical accounts do count as evidence, Montezuma did exist. What historical accounts can you find that Christ rose from the dead? Absolutely none at all. You will find many accounts saying that there are people who believed and claimed the Jesus rose from the dead, but absolutely no historical accounts that claim he did. At the same time you will find hundreds of historical accounts that show a man named Montezuma existed. If there is an account however, that says Montezuma was god-emperor, this is to be dismissed as nothing more than something the Aztecs may have believed in, but isn't true. In this same way we can look at this "evidecne" and the historical accounts of the ressurection. All history proves is that people, as in simple commoners and no serious writesrs of history, believed in a religious sense that Jesus came back to life. The only other "proof" of this is the bible, but the bible can be regarded as nothing more than myth. Why should we take the bible's word over that of other holy books such as the Quran, or faiths such as Greek Polytheism? There is no reason to, and hence, unless we are to start looking at all religious claims as evidence, the bible should not count. With that in mind, there is absolutely no evidence that Christ rose from the dead. Now, tell me why you believe he did.

Many, many scholars believe that there is more evidence of Christ's ressurection then almost any event in history. What do you think historically happened, if not the resurrection? I know the burden of proof is on me, but i'm not trying to make an argument that the resurrection happened, i'm just curious as to what you think did happen.


p.s.@ everyone: I think everyone needs to maintain their politeness and sanity here! People calling eachother and eachother's arguments stupid or idiotic or ignorant or filling their posts with condescending smilies is just an attempt to infuriate the person to which you are addressing, and it really isn't necessary. If the persons arguments are that crazy and wacked out, you don't need to point it out directly, let your argument speak for itself. When it comes to religion discussions, everyone starts behaving like *******s to eachother, and it shouldn't be that way. The hallmark of someone who has a cruddy argument is personally attacking the other person/their argument... lets keep it intelligent and not a battle of who can anger the other person more with condescending behavior!
 
Originally posted by Halcyon
You're quite correct that noone actually understands how the hell life started. Unfortunately, that's not a reason to assume intelligent design, only a reason to try to work out how life started.

A reason to assume intelligent design? Absolutely not, this guy goes too far I agree.

By the same token the sheer improbability makes it foolish to rule out the possibility of intelligent design, which of course is what atheism does.

Perhaps atheists are just 'ahead' of their time by a couple hundred years we will have to see, the facts at present support an 'agnostic' view if anything.
 
Originally posted by Giotto
Many, many scholars believe that there is more evidence of Christ's ressurection then almost any event in history. What do you think historically happened, if not the resurrection? I know the burden of proof is on me, but i'm not trying to make an argument that the resurrection happened, i'm just curious as to what you think did happen.


p.s.@ everyone: I think everyone needs to maintain their politeness and sanity here! People calling eachother and eachother's arguments stupid or idiotic or ignorant or filling their posts with condescending smilies is just an attempt to infuriate the person to which you are addressing, and it really isn't necessary. If the persons arguments are that crazy and wacked out, you don't need to point it out directly, let your argument speak for itself. When it comes to religion discussions, everyone starts behaving like *******s to eachother, and it shouldn't be that way. The hallmark of someone who has a cruddy argument is personally attacking the other person/their argument... lets keep it intelligent and not a battle of who can anger the other person more with condescending behavior!

You are forgetting Giotto, they are not unbiased, their fanaticism disallows them from using the Bible reference to an individual or event even to say that person existed. I could understand if they dont want to believe in the resurrection of Christ, but to deny his existance really shows the true agenda, and they still deny his very existance to this day had not other sources been found to confirm it. Now he just becomes a common criminal or something along those lines:D
 
Originally posted by Civvin
As I have mentioned about 3 or 4 times now atheism requires belief in evolution which is still a 'theory'.

And as I and many others have stated many times now. Atheism does not require belief in Evolution.

Let me say this again Atheism does not require belief in Evolution

So back to the question that you have yet to answer. How does atheism require someone to believe in implausible events???
 
Polymath your quote from Dawkins slicks around the point like Bill Clinton's hands around a Washington debutante.

Dawkins challenge to submit a paper questioning evolution is laughable, evolution is not in question here, the spontaneous generation of life is, and this man wisely uses dawkins and others own materials to show the fallacy that believing life spontaneously arose from non-life is not a fact, quite the opposite.

Plus, the fact that the vast majority of modern scientists do believe anyone who questions their theory to be 'stupid, misinformed, or wicked' is quite disturbing and reminiscent of again that great public institution, that humanitarian icon, the Catholic church. All this while in almost the next breadth they say that one step on the road to life has a 10 to the 150th chance of happening? Unbelievable!!
 
Civvin - can you tell me how to work out the probability of life arising from nothing, if you don't know the process by which it happened? By the way, I am completely unbiased. What I am fanatical about is not allowing people to get away with talking rubbish unchallenged.

"Many, many scholars believe that there is more evidence of Christ's ressurection then almost any event in history." - Giotto

WTH? Really? More than World War 2? Or 9/11? Or whatever was in the national papers yesterday? The problem is, you used the term 'scholars' when you meant 'simpletons'. See what I mean? I'm not letting you get away with this rubbish. I don't want to be mean, but what do you want?
 
Originally posted by andrewgprv
And as I and many others have stated many times now. Atheism does not require belief in Evolution.

Let me say this again Atheism does not require belief in Evolution

So back to the question that you have yet to answer. How does atheism require someone to believe in implausible events???

You can say that all you want, anyone with half a brain can see through it, tell you what you TELL me why you dont have to believe in evolution to be an atheist.

A. Atheist deny the existence of dieties (semantics aside this includes a 'being' powerful enough to create the world and its denziens)
B. Assume you don't believe in evolution or the spontaneous generation of life

OK given A and B how the hell did we get here? Some Mysterious process C? So you believe in some other quasi spiritual metaphysical process or entity? Do you have proof of the existence of such?
 
Atheism does not require someone to deny that the existence of a God is possable! Most Atheists simply do not see the existence of God as probable so they do not believe he exists.

How is that dogmatisim or fanatisim? If you present me with a reasonable, logical argument or evidence for his existence I will believe he exists but I have yet to hear a logicall argument or see evidence for his existence.
 
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