The Rise and Fall of the Sea People (IMMaw)

Maybe too passive. Meanwhile the Ai have expanded and will keep building units and their stacks will get bigger. Soon the Ai will have Mace/trebs/pikes and knights. 10-12+ strong stacks will be a nightmare. Their cities will have castles too making capture almost impossible.

For me key to these games is cripple and take out the big threats. Maybe you will prove me wrong but right now I doubt you could take out any of the Ai stacks here without taking big losses. HA will struggle against mace. There is no place for funnel for units. If you had captured a city closer to the Ai then a funnel approach might of worked.
 
@Gumbolt
No I agree completely with you, I'm quite sure this game has slipped away from me here. Maces are apprearing in numbers now and I'm getting worn down by an endless stream of stacks.
The height of the seapeoples empire was in T137 when we took Barcelona. After that was firmly stuck on the defensive.
Barcelona lost T149...
A last grasp of glory T150 when I razed both Madrid and Barcelona but after that Much more ground has been lost.
Did kill most of Justinians doomstack here:
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But instead of reinforcing his capture, he marched further into my vunerable heartland, and more and ever stronger units are raining in all the time.
Could be a fun excersise to see how long I would be able to defend before losing Ulundi, but victory... no no such thing is possible. ;)
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Like you said the AI always had a stream of more units to follow. This is where I struggle on these game. You always end up with 1-2 Ai who move clear ahead in science and have big stacks. No ivory is a big issue here. It would really help fending off stacks.

Are you joining the Phoenixes? Bic? SGOTM 26 is here. You would both add something to the team. :)
 
Would absolutely be fun to join that team as we rub shoulders so much here in S&T, but I think its probably best to wait and see for abit?
Perhaps it's better to help out in a team that is struggling more with activity?
Phoenixes looks like they have most active players right atm?
There seem to be hope for 4(!) teams, but I personally would rather that we play it safe to just make sure that SGTOM continues. If we can make 26 fly, 27 might not be that far off. ;)
 
Well, I can go broke, too ! 175 AD :

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Noooo ! Justinian, what have you done ?! Where have all your units gone ?
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Oh, that's right... Sorry, I forgot...
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Kidding but not kidding : this is good. I think. I hope. Maybe.
I'm gonna free up the HAs and send them south : I really want to capture (more of ; took one already) Justinian's cities while his army is occupied in my territory. You thought you were Napoleon but this is Russia, man ! No one is getting out alive ! (Safe to brag while the game is paused.)
Getting the Pyramids and getting rid of this powerful neighbour would be huge.
So, let him toy with his swords against axes behind walls. He's been going back and forth around my city for a few turns, this is why I need to ungarrison some : encourage him to attack.

Also :
Spoiler :

Starting to see Rome and China around Madrid. Lost a few units, rebuilt. I hope to send those HAs south as well...

Went for Maths after Masonry, maybe should have gone Alphabet instead, so as to get to Currency easier.
 
Really nice @BornInCantaloup cut of the neck and the head won't bite (as hard!).
I too believe that you probably should have gone alfa->currency. Seems that you will be beakerstarved for some time now...?

In case I don't get captivated by some other game, I will likely reroll to some earlier state of mine (I'm curious and interested to experiment more with the GLH+hiding approach) and see if I can either make HAs work, or if I can pull off some other stunt.
 
Looking back at my T129 situation, where my empire was proud and on the march forward. I think this is clearly way to ambitious.
I probably have way too many things that I do out of habit from normal games, that is causing problems here.
Normally I get away with minimal cottaging and just producing units like the true shaka/ragnar/monty, because I can always get vassals/ceasefires/techs in peacedeals.
This is not possible here and I do should take note and readjust.

Have looked breifly at @Gumbolt 's save, and it does seem that you both are making a killing with pillagegold, not only does it power the economy somewhat, but it starves the AI!
 
Yes, as a general rule, the earlier you start killing units, the better.
Kill a scout : they make a scout. Kill a worker : they make a worker. Kill an archer : they replace it, etc. Those are all safe kills that slow them down : first they want to replace their units, then they still want to expand and only when they're done expanding, and have their critical mass of units, will they start forming offensive stacks. Kill enough early and they're never forming a stack (this is illusory, of course, but the delay is real).
The less units are on the map, the easier. If we compare our kills, I have 15 worker kills, 50 archers and "only" 12-14 of swords, axes and spears.

I didn't pillage much but it's a good idea and I should do that more.
 
475 AD, status :

Spoiler :
Lots of things. First, it's easier to play this in teams ^^
The agression against Justinian went extremely well and I wouldn't have maneuvered that way if I hadn't made a post about unit roles, earlier. (Defend with axes behind walls, kill him with about 15 HAs.)
I instantly jumped above Justinian's power rating after I cleared his invasion and am now standing on top.
With mounted warfare, cutting through an AI's territory brings brings absurd benefits : they will send settler parties out with half of a city's garrison, effectively doing work for us.

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^ Constantinople is captured : a) we get road network, b) he sends archer, spear, axe out of Nicaea to accompany a settler, c) you know he loses that city.
The 2 axes above came from "Russia" : Justinian attacked against my walls, sending 10 or so units against 5+ shock axemen, then he tried to retreat but we roaded, man, we roaded ! Devoted 4 or so workers to road behind his back to destroy his retreat.

Spoiler :


^ See. This was the garrison. Now we can clear up some units. The others want to fleee : we road. Surplus axemen go down south help against Nicaea.
So this worked well.

Status.
Let's go with : Lay of the land, it will help cover some stuff.

So, I captured the Pyramids, revolted into Representation and got Currency. With Currency in, I want another offshore city. This one, it's great !
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Trouble is, it's not connected to my trade network, durp !
And I'll neet a ship to do it, because I don't think my exploring axeman can do it. Sad thing, Justinian killed my Trireme. So, fresh ship :
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You can see the Inca in the first screen : they're offshore and don't even have open borders with all the other AIs. They sent 2 galleys my way with axe and 3 spears like... a long time ago.
Seems they're trapped behind a peak on this landmass. Didn't scout, not sure what they have, not much.
South : Justinian had a lot of navy. That may be an argument for killing him. He's got 1 last city. Walled but on flatland.
Difficulty : I'm down to 9 horse archers. It's not like I lack the production but... well, I'll see.
9 HAs is on the low side of things, the sort of number that leaves you on the defence. Priority is likely to hit America. HAs have a limited timeframe, now.

Spoiler :

I've got a settler on a galley, a workboat on the way : going to settle the second city on this island and get my 2nd offshore trade route.
Nongoma is the most likely candidate to produce a Great Person : it's far, isolated.
You can notice from previous screens that I'm doing -50gpt (not building wealth). Ouch ! So, I can build wealth and stabilize. But I really want the Golden Age, now. With... with 18 cities. Because, like a jerk, I've not only captured but also settled.
The army costs are actually quite affordable (about 20gpt) but the city upkeep is above 120gpt.
And this is why I need Code of Laws. All of the AIs have it, I'll be last to it.
"Code of Laws, lulz, are you gonna build Courthouses, now ? Worst building in the game, I swear."
So, ok, here's the thing :
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Buddhism is not shrined (but we can get spread, now) and... the maintenance for Constantinople will be 15gpt ! Do I want to build a Forbidden Palace ? Heck, it's possible I do.
I don't have a good spread for Buddhism, yet, and I doubt I can afford missionaries but if I do or when I can, please remind me to tech Monotheism to cut on the infrastructure costs.
'Cause, with infrastructure : this whole land area is a good grab. Without infra, it's a drain.
So I can't, say, research Construction or Machinery. I'd rather get Calendar, but I only have access to a couple of resources. The wine tiles in this screenshot have attracted my attention. Barb city nearby. Easy gold ?
Can also see Antioch, the last of the Byzantines. It's possible going down south is the best invasion route, against America : Instead of going head on from Seville, follow the shore and capture secondary cities that will be size 12 but not protected. (Mental note : rebuild HAs.)

Because Seville, and Madrid, still serve as a fixation point and attract the attacks of : Spain (sent Longbow, archer, chariot, chariot, woot !), China, Rome and America.
My defence is well in place, there, so there's no need to move the frontline :
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See the jungle around Seville ? No ? Because as soon as I captured it, I used 4 workers to clear it (and I even roaded the bananas, which is useless). It's important to do that. Otherwise they're gonna camp on the jungle and wait and reinforce and you're gonna have to reinforce and then you'll go broke and unhappy an awful lot sooner.
Anyway, I'm gonna settle 3W2S of Madrid because I can.
Since I'm currently broke, I'm building infra (need to think about that). Maybe that scouting Impi will change the way I think.

Isabella has capitulated to Roosevelt and that's fine. The fact that they have Longbows isn't but the fact that she's a vassal is cool.
Longbows... The tech will spread. Not sure how I feel about it.
Caesar has Machinery and I think that's worse.
So.... Constantinople has a Scotland Yard. Maybe we magically get to Civil Service, revolt into Bureaucracy, build a Palace in Constantinople and run the Espionnage slider, MUHAHAHA ! Or maybe that won't work too well. What could have a better chance to work is to try and pop a Great Spy in Constantinople (Great Wall + Scotland Yard + Courthouse + Forbidden Palace in option). That would be a 300gpp Spy. Not sure when this can come in : not soon. But it's a real option to equalize the game with 18 cities.

So, the other bad thing (Feud, Machinery) is that they now all have access to Construction. I haven't seen Catapults, yet, but I will, soon.
I haven't tried to cut the forest NE of Madrid but I should. Please, remind me of that.

Spoiler :

Here, it's all nice and cosy, now. All first 5 cities have their Forge, so I can finally grow and work tiles.
There are still a sword and an axe that Justinian hid, south of kwaDukluza, which prevents cottaging (not really, I should just escort the workers).

Ulundi has settled the 4th GG (3rd Medic, 2nd Madrid) and might build a Stable. I'm considering it. But I definitely want a market, first : +9gpt.
Nobamba is another candidate for a market : city produces nothing and has a few chops at hand.

You know, this land is very green. So you might think : "Okay, settling another city between Madrid and kwaK will just ruin you" but I think the reality of things is that the commerce base that can be developped, here, over the next 40 turns (long time) is tremendous.
And 40 turns sure is a long time, but this is where triggering a Golden Age bridges the gap.

Another reason to kill Justinian (apart from getting rid of his navy) is that it would avoid that all of his former cities become like Madrid : 3 unhappies from We Yearn To Join Our Motherland at size 6.
So, we've got a plan, right ?

Few more screens :
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18 workers. I can terraform. Which is why I've stacked my workers to road and/or chop and/or do stuff. Even though I try not to lose too many turns.
70 archers killed... Better those than Longbows.
Ikhandas need be spammed.
Could use 30 more of those cottages. Unlocking new sources of happiness would be good.

Spoiler :

Ok, so not 1st in army now but I've been. Still close. Overall... I think it's fine. My GNP is lower than it looks to be here but I have the production.
America has the most land, I reckon.

Spoiler :

And America has 2 shrines, including the dominant Hindu shrine, and they have the Mausoleum of Mausoles.
So, killing America secures the game with a 2nd golden age : that's the theory.

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No comment, just showing.

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That will improve : 82 tiles over 18 cities, 3 of which are still in revolt, courthouses and markets on their way, that will improve.

The only question is whether I'll get killed by siege and X-bows before I get there.
This is a thing with Combat 3, Shock Axemen : they're not too good against Medieval units in superior numbers. But hey ! Who cares ? We got the Moral Victory Screen anyway !
 
Spoiler Thoughts :
The problem with pillage gold here is you need a metal unit to escort your HA. Or spears just kill them. Spears won't attack a 10% impi. Otherwise I would of pillaged China much sooner. If you can pillage a village with 3 units you can get 12-24 gold for each pillage. So that could be 50-80 gold. Of course you are paying for these units to roam AI land. It becomes more useful if you can keep the AI away from metal, ivory or horse

Your defences will depend on your ability to tech.What is your answer to praets, mace and pults? HA do a good job on killing catapults. If you can get past the stronger units. I often try to do combat and shock.

It's interesting you both skipped alphabet. Running research was useful.

I ignored Justin as I had all his resources pillaged. His archer stacks were nice training.

Your probably in good shape here but the ultimate risk is the Romans/Americans and Chinese.

Capturing mids is great.

I captured Greatlighthouse and Colossus. Trouble is no way I can keep this from Romans. Should of razed it but it's such a huge boost to research.
 
@ Gumbolt :
Spoiler :
I think my axemen will do fine against Praetorians (not seen any, yet). Both Madrid and Ulundi can produce C2+Shock axes. Caesar has had 0 war success, so far, so he won't come with CR3 units.
Macemen, I have 0 answer to that at the moment and Caesar-Roosevelt could trade Feud for Machinery. I suppose I'd need one or the other myself, to counter. I'm pretty sure I need Code of Laws right now. I'm not sure about the tech path, next.

I think skipping Alphabet was a mistake. Without capture gold, I was done for. (Or pillage gold, but I didn't do that...)
It's unrelated but capturing the Pyramids kinda makes up for that. The wonder just allows to do things that you otherwise couldn't.

You're right that I can't sit back while building infra comfortably and I think you at hint the right approach : I should go on a pillaging rampage, if I can't capture cities anymore.
I haven't seen much hoomph from China but Cho Ko Nus will be a danger, surely. Well, any collateral damage, for that matter.

If I kill Isabella, I'll get a cultural presence that would help defend against those sorts of units.
 
Still in love with that map. I replayed it on Emperor and this time I can beat it (with prior map knowledge above all).
My biggest "improvements" compared to my former playthroughs are:

Spoiler :


1. settled Ulundi 1N, that leaves room for a better second city 3S2W (with corn in the 1. ring + fish later, also shared cottages)
2. settled my 2nd city in the backland, and didn't have to defend at all against stray archers (which had forced me to panic-whip chariots before)
3. got the GLH and settled everything at the sea (except Nobamba)
4. build Ikandha in Ulundi before sending out warriors (so they just need to win 1 fight vs. scouts to get Woody II)
5. went for early IW, don't have Iron yet, but I did it for the jungle-crap, so I got a city next to the gems much earlier and I cleared all the jungle around Nobamba where the lousy foreign units tend to sit)
6. put more emphasis on production than on commerce, because tech advantage on its own won't save my life. GM bulbed Currency, i should have avoided Alpha (when do you have time to build research? and I don't plan to steal techs), also avoided CoL because GP are not important in that game. I currently go for FEUD.

Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

What is very curious, that I got a hindu spread in Bulawayo even though no-one is in that religion! How is that possible? Over the ocean?

All my improvements were only possible because of former map knowledge. But this is also a way of playing that I can enjoy from time to time. In general, surprise maps are more welcome so whenever you feel like posting another IMMAw game @BornInCantaloup I will join in.
 
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Hey, no worries. These maps are definitely within "reload territory" and even restart-friendly. Yes, we could put up another, once we've all died in the medieval era.
I'm quite sure that Emperor is still a very challenging difficulty - you will need to expand, and develop the land, and fight maintenance, and meet resistance. Do you have an idea what your tech path will be like, next ? Are you going towards Knights ?

"What is very curious, that I got a hindu spread in Bulawayo even though no-one is in that religion! How is that possible? Over the ocean?"
Yes, it must be the Incan religion and... since they did not find you, yet, it could spread, very funny. Pretty good for you to get the extra happy.

I like your leader name. Do you have more settlers to ship overseas, yet ? They'd make a nice profit for you, given Currency + GLH. Probably better to try and invest into that before you revolt into Vassalage.
Seems like you could patrol some HAs outside your borders, too, but I'm unsure of your numbers. You should when you can afford the spare units.
 
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I too did another attempt today where I held of GLH abit longer to develop more first.
Then it was built in a distant land. :)

I'm not sure I could lure a victory out of this map even if it was on emperor.
 
Machinery/Guilds/Gunpowder is the tech path. I played a bit longer and should have even avoided CS. Must reload to get the Crossbows earlier. These games need all the military techs you can get, as if you were Gengis Khan or.... Shaka! Going for early CS is a typical move of mine, but I would favor vassalage over bureau here, a capitol with so much water isn't that great either.
Hindu came from the Inca who I have found by now. Good thing about that religion is that we are the only two guys having it and HC built the AP. So whipped monasteries give me some hammers in the coastal cities.
Need to send out even more settlers. Practically every coastal city is a benefit to my empire even if I won't get much units from there.

A little problem is that I am not pushing out yet. I build cats all the time and then I waste them with barrage on Justinian stacks (who are massive already). Don't trust my archers to defend in a flatland-town like Nobamba. I lost several fights with 7% odds for his swords :thumbsup:
Also realized that I should never build walls. Because the AI will bombard anyway and it's better for me when they attack right now before reinforcements are arriving....
 
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Oh, i forgot that CS is also needed for Maces.... because I usually have it already.... still, machinery first would be better, especially against justinian melee stacks that lately began to pass my border city and head towards my 1-warrior-defended capitol :eek:. I think AGG maces with potentially +3 promotions (feud, 2 settled GGs) are great (especially against phants + praets).
Oh, again, I need 3 settled GGs for +6 xp, +3 from Barracks, +2 from vassalage.
Do you settle those guys after first super-medic? Or promote a bunch of HAs?
 
I too did another attempt today where I held of GLH abit longer to develop more first.
Then it was built in a distant land. :)

I'm not sure I could lure a victory out of this map even if it was on emperor.

As for the GLH, we have 2 guys on the map who are best candidates to get that early. In this regard, it would be better if they met you asap, because that will change their tech/production planning.
 
@ Tobi, In no particular order :

You'll see when you get there but I don't think you'd gain much from Gunpowder (Muskets ?). Banking, otoh, gives a very valuable civic under these settings and Banks... well, Banks are just great in any commerce city when you spend 3/4th of the turns running 100% gold.
Same reason (civic), Feudalism early is probably better than Machinery. I agree that Feudalism is more attractive than Civil Service. The civic saves gold, gives promotions (saves gold again) and it unlocks a killer unit.
I'm pretty sure you need non-stop military action but you also need to balance that fact with the economy. The GLH gives a very nice headstart in that regard but it won't be enough for the long game (hence, Banking).

I agree that, if they have Catapults (downside of going GLH first), then Walls are not good. For the reason you described.
If you're simply defending at the moment, that may be fine, if you're researching at a great pace. If your research is down and you're just defending : trouble.

Great Generals :
I don't think the super medic is very useful until you have an offensive stack or they're attacking you with stacks of 10-15. Healing 4-5 units is worth a medic but not a super medic.
So I wouldn't make a medic with the first GG. I did one with the 3rd but... depending on how the game goes... you know. Eventually, you probably want a couple of super medics : an offensive and a defensive one.
Many people like attaching a GG for 20xp spread over 4-5 units. I seldom do that.
So :
I settled n°1 in Ulundi for quick promos (didn't want Stable) ; settled n°2 in Madrid for the same reason. Settled n°4 in Ulundi again because I didn't have another great production city.
Attaching :
On Longbows would be good, to get to Drill IV faster. However : if you have a singe super-defender, the risk it dies is way higher, because it will take most fights even when it is wounded.
So : wait until you have several Drill III guys and attach spreading the xp so they reach Drill IV. I think that spread would be better than making a single 20xp unit.

Yes, Maces with C3 are likely very good. Can do Combat Swords before that, against Catapults, but you have Longbows, so... all is good.

If/when you find marble (it's really awkward on this map), you can consider going for some Epics, too. Settled GGs in the Heroic Epic are worth their price.
 
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