The roots and essence of the European Union project

[Quackers]

I see Little England Quackers taking the world of the Daily Fail as gosbel?

Is the first thing you say to me: am i meant to give you respect and kindness after that?
Two way street Aliedhoo.

 

[Leoreth]

How about a little substance, if respect and kindness are too much to ask?

 

[Quackers]

What do you want to know?

 

[Ailedhoo]

Is the first thing you say to me: am i meant to give you respect and kindness after that?
Two way street Aliedhoo.

I see mister "Europehiles" and "Little Europeans." O and "Germany wants to steal our money" and other rubbish things your stating.

 

[Quackers]

I even winked at the end of the post; it was just a bit of humour. I like to jibe leoreth sometimes because its entertaining and I get something, weirdly, out of it ;P.

Even so, do I immediately deserve such disrespect and hate for that view, tyrant?

 

[LamaGT]

I've been thinking lately that the EU should have never went as far as the Euro. Free flow of goods and people is good, subsidies for infrastructure is good. Forcing countries to adopt ridiculous measures just to pay off some fat bankers is bad.

 

[Leoreth]

I even winked at the end of the post; it was just a bit of humour. I like to jibe leoreth sometimes because its entertaining and I get something, weirdly, out of it ;P.

Even so, do I immediately deserve such disrespect and hate for that view, tyrant?

What you deserve is being treated like the self-admitted troll you are, instead of someone who's genuinely willing to be part of a discussion.

 

[Quackers]

Lets not forget quite simply that countries in the Eurozone are asyemmetrical. They have different levels of income, different structure of their economies (reliance on one sector over another), different labour markets, laws, import and export markets - there whole macroeconomic internal balances are at odds with one another.
So you get a suboptimal currency for an entire continent, you destroy the ability of some countries to determine monetary policy thus hammering their cause to deal with shocks. In other words the EU isn't an optimal currency area (i mean it's been proved by the recent crises). It grew too far, too fast. I've heard that ideally only France, Benelux countries, Sweden, Denmark and Germany could feasibly share a currency according to some tests of an optimal currency area. Krugman said that back in the early 1990s..

 

[Ailedhoo]

I even winked at the end of the post; it was just a bit of humour. I like to jibe leoreth sometimes because its entertaining and I get something, weirdly, out of it ;P.

How can I tell on a forum when I cannot see your expressions? A wink is but a wink, not seeing the full picture.

Even so, do I immediately deserve such disrespect and hate for that view, tyrant

I am sorry I cannot read the body langauge of people I cannot see, nor can I not hear the vocie cast. Plus your first post... how could I predict it as a simple joke?

Still: I disrespect thee for "Europhiles" and basic tiredness from UKIP... forgive me if I confussed you for them clowns... wait I am sorry for clowns for that statement. You know their name is rather ironic to a Welsh seperist like myself...

 

[Quackers]

What you deserve is being treated like the self-admitted troll you are, instead of someone who's genuinely willing to be part of a discussion.

You don't want me to change, you love it

 

[innonimatu]

If you honestly believe this, there is no point even talking about it.

If you honestly cannot see that rule by "technocrats" (at the service of the oligarchy) under the excuse of the EU is happening every day in many (if not all) of the EU's member countries then it is indeed useless to talk. You just refuse to see what is happening.

But I'll try, once more, to make you see. The governments of each sovereign state could, of course, carry out different policies. But to do that they'd have to break the EU treaties. If there is a treaty limiting government deficits, another treaty limiting a state's ability to issue currency, another one limiting the ability to control trade, and so on, what is left of the sovereign power of the state? What is the point of having politics, electing governments, if they are to do no more than manage things as they exist under the current policies? The purpose of politics is to allow the public to take decisions about policies. The purpose of the EU is to enforce the same policies across the whole EU. The EU empties and thus annihilates democracy in each of its member states. The only choice the people of these countries have left is between either follow the diktats from Brussels (reached by a decision process which does not care about the opinion of the citizens of each individual country[/B]) or leave the EU. And leave they will in due time.

To make thins more infuriating some national governments (and everybody knows which) still get to dictate policies to the whole EU according to the electoral needs of its politicians. In the union every pig is equal, but some are more equal than others... this does not go unnoticed.

 

[gangleri2001]

If you honestly cannot see that rule by "technocrats" (at the service of the oligarchy) under the excuse of the EU is happening every day in many (if not all) of the EU's member countries then it is indeed useless to talk. You just refuse to see what is happening.

But I'll try, once more, to make you see. The governments of each sovereign state could, of course, carry out different policies. But to do that they'd have to break the EU treaties. If there is a treaty limiting government deficits, another treaty limiting a state's ability to issue currency, another one limiting the ability to control trade, and so on, what is left of the sovereign power of the state? What is the point of having politics, electing governments, if they are to do no more than manage things as they exist under the current policies? The purpose of politics is to allow the public to take decisions about policies. The purpose of the EU is to enforce the same policies across the whole EU. The EU empties and thus annihilates democracy in each of its member states. The only choice the people of these countries have left is between either follow the diktats from Brussels (reached by a decision process which does not care about the opinion of the citizens of each individual country[/B]) or leave the EU. And leave they will in due time.

To make thins more infuriating some national governments (and everybody knows which) still get to dictate policies to the whole EU according to the electoral needs of its politicians. In the union every pig is equal, but some are more equal than others... this does not go unnoticed.

*fornicate* the EU.

 

[Core Imposter]

You basically have a core group of elitocrats attempting to do with the use of the Euro what none suceeded in doing with the sword. Unify all of Europe under their rule.

And what is the rallying cry of the oppressed? "Its better to lose part of government guaranteed savings to government thieves than to lose it all!"

Meanwhile across wide oceans Chinese bent on world dominion are genetically engineering more intelligent children for future rule with vast sums of Western wealth, obtained by trade, fueled by Chinese slave labor and greased by currency manipulation.

You have to love it when a plan comes together. Right?

Bo Jiang, the Chinese national scientist employed by a NASA contractor for work at the space agency's Langley Research Center, was arrested Sunday by the FBI at Dulles International Airport as he tried to flee to China, according to Rep. Frank Wolf, R-VA.

Wolf said during a Capitol Hill news conference today that Jiang’s work at the NASA facility had given him access to information that “would be of the greatest interest to foreign spies, including China.”

Wolf is chairman of a House Appropriations Committee subcommittee that has budget oversight authority for NASA.

He made Jiang's name public for the first time last week during a subcommittee hearing where he also charged that Jiang had taken “voluminous sensitive” NASA documents back to China on a trip in 2012.

Jiang was employed by the National Institute of Aerospace, a Hampton, VA-based NASA contractor. The position afforded Jiang virtually unlimited, unescorted access to the NASA Langley facility, which is the location for classified research programs related to U.S. space defense technologies


I guess this is just China bashing and a thread derail in some eyes but connect the dots and see the image.

 

[History_Buff]

Lets not forget quite simply that countries in the Eurozone are asyemmetrical. They have different levels of income, different structure of their economies (reliance on one sector over another), different labour markets, laws, import and export markets - there whole macroeconomic internal balances are at odds with one another.
So you get a suboptimal currency for an entire continent, you destroy the ability of some countries to determine monetary policy thus hammering their cause to deal with shocks. In other words the EU isn't an optimal currency area (i mean it's been proved by the recent crises).

I'm perfectly willing to accept that the EU grew too far too fast; I'm certainly no expert on European politics. But if you think about it, all of this applies almost identically to divisions within the countries as well. I imagine Berlin has different labour markets, income levels, and regulations, than say Frankfurt or Munich (three cities I picked randomly BTW).

But I'll try, once more, to make you see. The governments of each sovereign state could, of course, carry out different policies. But to do that they'd have to break the EU treaties. If there is a treaty limiting government deficits, another treaty limiting a state's ability to issue currency, another one limiting the ability to control trade, and so on, what is left of the sovereign power of the state? What is the point of having politics, electing governments, if they are to do no more than manage things as they exist under the current policies? The purpose of politics is to allow the public to take decisions about policies. The purpose of the EU is to enforce the same policies across the whole EU. The EU empties and thus annihilates democracy in each of its member states. The only choice the people of these countries have left is between either follow the diktats from Brussels (reached by a decision process which does not care about the opinion of the citizens of each individual country[/B]) or leave the EU. And leave they will in due time.

Oh, don't get me wrong: objecting to your country giving up sovereignty to a larger organization is certainly something you can be concerned about. Certainly that's what the EU project would appear to be about, and I think it has many advantages and disadvantages that can be argued about perfectly well (although I won't, because I'm not familiar or particularly interested in it).

What I was saying is that painting pro-EU politicians as Snidely Whiplash-esque villains out to steal their people's freedom doesn't advance the discussion at all.

 

[Core Imposter]

Pro-EU politicians are Snidely Whiplash-esque villains out to steal their people's freedom.

 

[Tahuti]

I've been thinking lately that the EU should have never went as far as the Euro. Free flow of goods and people is good, subsidies for infrastructure is good. Forcing countries to adopt ridiculous measures just to pay off some fat bankers is bad.

The problem, if the Greeks still had the Drachma, Greece would have simply devaluated it and in so doing destroyed the value of all Greece related assets in Northwest Europe, while the Euro at the very least buys time. Idem dito for Italy, Spain and Portugal Whether the time bought is used well is another story.

 

[Peck of Arabia]

If a devalued drachma means cheap Greek holidays for the rest of us, I'm all for it!

 

[Traitorfish]

The EU is bollocks. Reason being, all governments are bollocks. No need to over-complicate this.

 

[Leoreth]

If you honestly cannot see that rule by "technocrats" (at the service of the oligarchy) under the excuse of the EU is happening every day in many (if not all) of the EU's member countries then it is indeed useless to talk. You just refuse to see what is happening.

Criticizing technocrat rule would be a valid point, but it's not the one you were making in the EU. You were trying to draw a tenuous connection to various breeds of fascists through the weapon of the intellectually lazy known as quote mining. And the only substantial point you were able to deduce from that is how you can "justify anything to appeal to the ideal of pan-Europeanism", as if that weren't the case with whatever ideal you could think of.

To make thins more infuriating some national governments (and everybody knows which) still get to dictate policies to the whole EU according to the electoral needs of its politicians. In the union every pig is equal, but some are more equal than others... this does not go unnoticed.

The solution to this is obviously to curtail the influence of national governments and finally strengthen the democratic institutions of the union. Unfortunately we get bogged down by nationalist EU-critics all the time so that won't ever get off the spot.

Pro-EU politicians are Snidely Whiplash-esque villains out to steal their people's freedom.

Please stick to irrational hatred of your own federal level.

The EU is bollocks. Reason being, all governments are bollocks. No need to over-complicate this.

No, national governments are inherently awesome, as is protectionism.

 

[berkut]

Reductio ad Hitlerum lol