The science of God, or, the God of science

The bolded part is impossible. Two people always have different brain structure at lower level, even if they are identical twins. If you trace every single electrical impulse in their brains, their composition will be very different. Chemistry may be similar (though not identical too), but chemistry alone obviously don't define all senses and thinking processes.

I didn't mean that both people had exactly the same brain or the same brain chemistry, but that for a second the same (or, if you prefer, a similiar) impulse happened in both. essentially what I wanted to get at is that Qualia often correlates with brain chemistry, but then that's it. we see no causation. also, the further implication is that similiar brain chemistry for two people may end up with different outcomes.
 
Qualia are no more than the subjective experience of a change in brain state caused by sensory input. They are probably the same for everyone - that people reliably view red as a 'hot' or 'angry' colour for example is evidence that the qualia associated with experiencing the colour red is consistent across individuals. Taste is more interesting, since there's a whole layer of intermediary chemistry in our receptors and saliva, tastes may be a more individual experience than whether or not our cone cells are activated. Still, there's nothing about the experience of experiences that requires any sort of supernatural explanation.
 
I didn't mean that both people had exactly the same brain or the same brain chemistry, but that for a second the same (or, if you prefer, a similiar) impulse happened in both. essentially what I wanted to get at is that Qualia often correlates with brain chemistry, but then that's it. we see no causation. also, the further implication is that similiar brain chemistry for two people may end up with different outcomes.
I'm not sure they will have very similar impulses. One person will have a neuron or group of neurons firing, responding to an image. Another will likely have these neurons located in different places. Responses of these people will be similar only to extent of the similarity of their qualia.

Your argument is that qualia cannot be caused and fully defined by brain's physical state? I think it can and it is.
It obviously cannot be reduced to just chemistry. May be electrical activity isn't enough too, probably quantum effects are involved.
 
I think people are imagining qualia as much more macro than the discussion needs to be. To use a scientific number, there are probably a bazillion different qualia. Or maybe not. Either they can be quantized, or they cannot.

Expecting two brains to have the same qualia from a movie is a bit like expecting two campfires to take on the exact same shape during a puff of wind. It won't be that way. Each campfire has a completely different burning pattern that will respond differently

But, at the same time, each campfire's output will be of similar (and in some ways identical, but not quite) components. Photons. Chemicals. Etc. Each of those outputs are the equivalent of a qualia. We know there are quantized unique components, but we cannot report on all of them. The two campfires are the same and different at the same time

There are not infinite macro configurations of a campfire. There are only so many ways in which a puff of wind can influence the new configuration of a campfire.
 
The campfire analogy is good IMO.
I also thought about artificial neural network trained to recognize cats and dogs on image. You can train two networks with the same configuration and they will both recognize pictures. But their weights, accuracy and reaction on the same input image will be different. If you show them a picture of cat, they both will likely respond with "cat" output, but they'll process the image differently.
 
It obviously cannot be reduced to just chemistry. May be electrical activity isn't enough too, probably quantum effects are involved.

Quantum effects are extremely likely to be involved, since we've not observed any credible "cut-off" point where quantum effects stop being involved in physics in general that I've heard. It seems like stuff is all quantum, all the time, though humans can't perceive that at macro scales.

That doesn't imply that a *particular* quantum effect is relevant, just that it's hard to picture a scenario where quantum effects don't hold at least some kind of influence.
 
Yeah, I understand that the effects we consider as classical, are in fact quantum at the bottom level too. I meant effects which are considered 'purely' quantum, like entanglement.
 
Still, there's nothing about the experience of experiences that requires any sort of supernatural explanation.

Is the definition of supernatural here just "not physicalist"?
 
Since we're on about qualia, I will share two factoids that kinda blew my mind when I was pondering them during my studies.

You know how a smell can 'take you back' to a childhood memory? There's already a bunch written about this, but the part that is qualia-related is that we have over 300 odor-receptor genes (which operate according to a lock-and-key mechanism, kinda). Unlike a lot of our other senses, the odor-receptors actually undergo turnover as we age, and the ratios of the various receptors will change. So, while the odor is very familiar, the entire detection machinery is changed in ways we'd call 'obvious'. The important thing here is that we think of the macro-qualia to be 'very similar' to our childhood experience.

The other factoid which I chased briefly, but couldn't resolve: there are two components to qualia. Firstly, we've evolved the neuronal machinery to perceive some qualia, and these machinery are buried awfully deep in our development. But the second is whether we can mentally imagine a qualia that we've never been trained to perceive. Qualia are correlates to inputs. But we not only receive these inputs as we live, but we've also been built to perceive these inputs.

One question we can ask is "Despite having the neuroarchitecture to perceive color, color-blind people have never trained that architecture to perceive colors, because they don't have a way to create the input. Is their brain able to create this qualia?"

Synesthetes have cross-modalities. They 'see' sounds or 'taste' colors, or whatever. Some will see numbers with colors attached. So, there will be a small cross-section of people who're both synesthetes AND color-blind. Despite being unable to ever perceive certain colors, can they make qualia that they've never trained? There's some evidence that their brains have qualia that don't have correlates to inputs that they received. The data are not rock-solid-convincing that this is true, but it sure is exciting.
 
Funny how you talk about "cop outs" while contending that you have no responsibility for your actions whatsoever. That what you are teaching your kid?
?

I'm just keeping it real. Brain science is showing us free will is an illusion.

I teach my kid how to act obviously. Are you saying because I don't believe in free will that means I neglect my responsibilities?

For practical purposes I take responsibly for myself and my dependent. I have compassion for others because they have no choice but to cling to their illusions. The serenity prayer is a good reminder to always consider our locus of control.

Knowing my daughter is a product of genes and environment allows me to be much more patient w her. I dont yell at her or become disappointed, I just try to help her as best I can.

If everyone sees the absurdity of free will we will become a more patient, logical and compassionate society.
 
Is the definition of supernatural here just "not physicalist"?
Supernatural as in requiring fundamental changes to our current understanding of physics. Supernatural as a term is a poor one, being self-contradictory: If it exists in reality then it is natural - as Spinoza pointed out. But notions of the supernatural suffuse our culture, so it is a reasonable term to use.
 
We don't really need to discuss the definition. I think that qualia came up as a topic because we were discussing evidence for post death consciousness
 
It doesn't really belong to you in the first place. No way, no how.

Or, if Bedazzled is a bit poppy, we could go with Revelation 22:13 I suppose.

Or maybe, not through good works, but through God alone?

Though I'm not sure about "patient, logical, and compassionate." I see no particular reason to link logic and compassion. Perhaps they can enable each other to an extent, they don't seem like they're antithetical by any means, but it sure doesn't seem like they lean on each other much either. I'm never particularly mad at the invasive species of grey squirrels around here when they start causing home damage, I've never particularly had an negative emotional state about groundhogs in the foundation. They're just doing their thing. Seeing them crushed pointlessly on the side of the road is actually kind of infuriating(in the case of the groundhogs, the grey squirrels we'd be better without). But I'll be if I have much patience or compassion for them either. Mostly I want them destroyed efficiently in a manner that is minimally expensive and time consuming to me. I suppose I do attempt to put lead in the most immediately fatal placements as possible rather than the easiest target, so maybe there's that compassion, or something?
 
it's not unimagineable. lobsters don't have brains (they have something.. similiar) yet clearly they're capable of some cool stuff. some jellyfish don't even have brains NOR spinal cords, they operate on freakin nothing, yet they somehow meet with other jellyfish and morph into an even bigger entity which is capable of even more complex tasks than a single jellyfish.

enough atoms and you have bacteria, enough different bacteria and other matters and you have perhaps on organ, enough organs and you have a body, combine body and brain and you have an experiencing entity. there seem to never be ANY hard boundaries in this process. they're all fluid.

"soul" is pretty much just a thinly veiled idea of essentialism (there is perhaps no better symbol of the essential than the Christian or neo-Christian idea of the soul). I think both the idea of qualia and quantum mechanics don't combine well with essentialism, so I would take the opposite conclusion that MW does. I do however still believe in consciousness not being limited to brains, even if that may sound superstitious to you. Physicalism/Biologism sounds superstitious to ME :lol:
Consciousness can easily be construed to exist in one celled critters all the way up through humans. What changes is its perceptions and capabilities. As the complexities of consciousness change through evolution, the scope of experience that can be processed (qualia) changes. I love the jellyfish example. It would seem to indicate that consciousness is not fully tied to brains and their size or complexity. Could brains be just a tool of consciousness? Through living things consciousness has evolved brains as a better way to experience physicality?

Which came first? Brains before consciousness or Consciousness before brains?
 
I don't know a single Theory of Consciousness that doesn't require a neural network. Just like wood cannot catch on fire before a certain temperature is reached, it's reasonable to think that Consciousness requires a threshold of complexity before it can occur
 
I'm not actually sure. I think it was brought up mockingly but I think the concept of qualia can be applied to inanimate objects and subatomic particles and stuff. At the very least it's interesting to think about.

Building on this a little I came across an interesting essay a while back about what David Graeber calls the "play principle":
I don’t deny that what I’ve presented so far is a savage simplification of very complicated issues. I’m not even saying that the position I’m suggesting here—that there is a play principle at the basis of all physical reality—is necessarily true. I would just insist that such a perspective is at least as plausible as the weirdly inconsistent speculations that currently pass for orthodoxy, in which a mindless, robotic universe suddenly produces poets and philosophers out of nowhere. Nor, I think, does seeing play as a principle of nature necessarily mean adopting any sort of milky utopian view. The play principle can help explain why sex is fun, but it can also explain why cruelty is fun. (As anyone who has watched a cat play with a mouse can attest, a lot of animal play is not particularly nice.) But it gives us ground to unthink the world around us.

Is it meaningful to say an electron “chooses” to jump the way it does? Obviously, there’s no way to prove it. The only evidence we could have (that we can’t predict what it’s going to do), we do have. But it’s hardly decisive. Still, if one wants a consistently materialist explanation of the world—that is, if one does not wish to treat the mind as some supernatural entity imposed on the material world, but rather as simply a more complex organization of processes that are already going on, at every level of material reality—then it makes sense that something at least a little like intentionality, something at least a little like experience, something at least a little like freedom, would have to exist on every level of physical reality as well.

Why do most of us, then, immediately recoil at such conclusions? Why do they seem crazy and unscientific? Or more to the point, why are we perfectly willing to ascribe agency to a strand of DNA (however “metaphorically”), but consider it absurd to do the same with an electron, a snowflake, or a coherent electromagnetic field? The answer, it seems, is because it’s pretty much impossible to ascribe self-interest to a snowflake. If we have convinced ourselves that rational explanation of action can consist only of treating action as if there were some sort of self-serving calculation behind it, then by that definition, on all these levels, rational explanations can’t be found. Unlike a DNA molecule, which we can at least pretend is pursuing some gangster-like project of ruthless self-aggrandizement, an electron simply does not have a material interest to pursue, not even survival. It is in no sense competing with other electrons. If an electron is acting freely—if it, as Richard Feynman is supposed to have said, “does anything it likes”—it can only be acting freely as an end in itself. Which would mean that at the very foundations of physical reality, we encounter freedom for its own sake—which also means we encounter the most rudimentary form of play.

@yung.carl.jung I want your thoughts too
 
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All this talk about qualia, inanimate objects and neuronal structures made me think of this great scene

 
I don't know a single Theory of Consciousness that doesn't require a neural network. Just like wood cannot catch on fire before a certain temperature is reached, it's reasonable to think that Consciousness requires a threshold of complexity before it can occur
If you define consciousness in particular ways, you can easily expand or contract its scope. As I see it we treat consciousness much like we used to treat what it was to be human. As we set up those rules over time they have all been broken and so we make up new ones. It makes more sense to me to put consciousness on a broad continuum of complexity. If you don't you are forced to create points where lack of consciousness becomes consciousness. Such points are pretty difficult to define and like our definition of self awareness apt to change. It seems much simpler and accurate to eliminate such points altogether and have smooth transitions rooted in complexity.
 
That assumes a lot. As I said, we don't have a theory of consciousness that doesn't also need a minimum neuronal strata. As well, we cannot easily even test or build upon those theories. I don't know of any mainstream theories that don't necessitate at least multiple sensory modalities feeding onto prediction machinery

Saying that a single cell could be conscious is a little bit woo tastic
 
That assumes a lot. As I said, we don't have a theory of consciousness that doesn't also need a minimum neuronal strata. As well, we cannot easily even test or build upon those theories. I don't know of any mainstream theories that don't necessitate at least multiple sensory modalities feeding onto prediction machinery

Saying that a single cell could be conscious is a little bit woo tastic
It all depends upon how you define things. A single cell is quite capable of responding to changes around it. That very simple level of awareness is not the same as a pebble. Why does consciousness need some minimum level of neuronal strata? Is there a maximum level beyond which consciousness is lost?

What is the approximate level of neuronal strata needed for consciousness by current standards? Where do we draw that line today?
 
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