The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Manfred Belheim]

Since this is a thread about guns and not just gun control... Some years ago, I was watching some kind of documentary about the small arms used by U.S. military. I remember them talking about the US Army sidearm, and how a pistol was useful for going into buildings, because of its size and maneuverability. You can use a pistol in one hand, allowing you to open a door or push an adversary; its small size makes it easier to use in close quarters, when you're going through a doorway or across a room that has furniture or other barriers. So I was thinking about the home defense issue. Isn't a good pistol a better choice than a long gun? Something else a home owner might have to consider would be the round's penetration through walls. You wouldn't want a weapon with such high muzzle velocity that missed shots travel through a wall and potentially hit a neighbor or family member, would you? Obviously, if you live in a rural area, your neighbor might be a mile away, but where I live, the buildings are about 6-10 feet apart on the sides; in the front and the back, maybe 30-50 feet.

On the other hand, using mirrors or CCTV of thermal goggles (or really good hearing) to pinpoint and shoot intruders through walls would be awesome.

 

[EgonSpengler]

On the other hand, using mirrors or CCTV of thermal goggles (or really good hearing) to pinpoint and shoot intruders through walls would be awesome.

Didn't Robocop do that? I feel like I've seen that in a movie.

 

[rah]

It's quite common in ARNOLD movies.

 

[Farm Boy]

Since this is a thread about guns and not just gun control... Some years ago, I was watching some kind of documentary about the small arms used by U.S. military. I remember them talking about the US Army sidearm, and how a pistol was useful for going into buildings, because of its size and maneuverability. You can use a pistol in one hand, allowing you to open a door or push an adversary; its small size makes it easier to use in close quarters, when you're going through a doorway or across a room that has furniture or other barriers. So I was thinking about the home defense issue. Isn't a good pistol a better choice than a long gun? Something else a home owner might have to consider would be the round's penetration through walls. You wouldn't want a weapon with such high muzzle velocity that missed shots travel through a wall and potentially hit a neighbor or family member, would you? Obviously, if you live in a rural area, your neighbor might be a mile away, but where I live, the buildings are about 6-10 feet apart on the sides; in the front and the back, maybe 30-50 feet.

They are easy to carry. I generally would prefer a shotgun. I hate using handguns.

 

[EgonSpengler]

They are easy to carry. I generally would prefer a shotgun. I hate using handguns.

iirc, the guy who killed the woman in Detroit by shooting through his front door used a shotgun. It seems like that kind of power is maybe overkill for home defense. I mean, if the door is closed, you're alright for the moment, aren't you? If they pick the lock or smash it open ought to be when you shoot them. I would think.

 

[Lexicus]

Didn't Robocop do that? I feel like I've seen that in a movie.

Agent Smith did it to Morpheus in the Matrix

 

[rah]

Eraser 1996

 

[Farm Boy]

iirc, the guy who killed the woman in Detroit by shooting through his front door used a shotgun. It seems like that kind of power is maybe overkill for home defense. I mean, if the door is closed, you're alright for the moment, aren't you? If they pick the lock or smash it open ought to be when you shoot them. I would think.

If you put a handgun near your front door, you can shoot through it(it was a screen door in this case, you could bayonet somebody through one). Shotguns pellets, generally speaking, are not going to penetrate walls super readily. They're easy to use, they're easy to point, they're hard to point drastically wrong, and they "menace." The rack of a slide is recognizable sound of danger. They're big and noticeable. Sure, you can always find a case where some numbnut murdered somebody with something. Like 65% of the mass killings thread is actually guns, but "baring the fangs of violence" or whatnot is generally an desired step of escalation between perceived intruding threat and full lethal response.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I knew people who loaded shotgun shells with rock salt for home defense.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Shotguns pellets, generally speaking, are not going to penetrate walls super readily.

Good point, shotguns have a variety of loads you can choose from, so you could use something suited to your place.

I knew people who loaded shotgun shells with rock salt for home defense.

I've heard of that. I always thought that was a myth. Does that really work?

 

[El_Machinae]

Since this is a thread about guns and not just gun control... Some years ago, I was watching some kind of documentary about the small arms used by U.S. military. I remember them talking about the US Army sidearm, and how a pistol was useful for going into buildings, because of its size and maneuverability. You can use a pistol in one hand, allowing you to open a door or push an adversary; its small size makes it easier to use in close quarters, when you're going through a doorway or across a room that has furniture or other barriers. So I was thinking about the home defense issue. Isn't a good pistol a better choice than a long gun? Something else a home owner might have to consider would be the round's penetration through walls. You wouldn't want a weapon with such high muzzle velocity that missed shots travel through a wall and potentially hit a neighbor or family member, would you? Obviously, if you live in a rural area, your neighbor might be a mile away, but where I live, the buildings are about 6-10 feet apart on the sides; in the front and the back, maybe 30-50 feet.

You don't need a pistol for home defense, because your goal is to get away from the intruder, not confront them. The handgun is useful for portability, which means that it's much more likely to be in a convenient place when you actually need it.

With home defense, the goal is to retreat to a safe location and get back up. The only time you're pressing forward is to defend loved ones. If given the option, at no point do you want to be going towards somebody you think is armed.

The most common suggestion I see for home defense is a 20 gauge shotgun with number 3 shot. That puts a lot of lead into the air per unit of recoil, and that shot is predicted to lose all its velocity after penetrating 6-8 in of meat. In other words, it will damage the person that you hit while also being able to bleed momentum if it misses.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I've heard of that. I always thought that was a myth. Does that really work?

No idea if it works or not but yeah, it's a real thing some people do when they are worried about collateral damage and don't particularly want to kill intruders.

You don't need a pistol for home defense, because your goal is to get away from the intruder, not confront them

Unfortunately, I knew waaaay more ammosexuals who were all about confrontations and killing the intruder than those who were packing bird shot or rock salt. They weren't really worried about trying to escape, they practically fantasized about killing someone who broke in.

 

[Lexicus]

I knew people who loaded shotgun shells with rock salt for home defense.

Didn't that happen in Kill Bill or am I trippin

 

[EgonSpengler]

You don't need a pistol for home defense, because your goal is to get away from the intruder, not confront them. The handgun is useful for portability, which means that it's much more likely to be in a convenient place when you actually need it.

With home defense, the goal is to retreat to a safe location and get back up. The only time you're pressing forward is to defend loved ones. If given the option, at no point do you want to be going towards somebody you think is armed.

The most common suggestion I see for home defense is a 20 gauge shotgun with number 3 shot. That puts a lot of lead into the air per unit of recoil, and that shot is predicted to lose all its velocity after penetrating 6-8 in of meat. In other words, it will damage the person that you hit while also being able to bleed momentum if it misses.

Yeah, me personally, I don't need a gun for home defense at all. This is all just theorizing, for me. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood. I'd probably get a dog before I got a gun.

 

[Farm Boy]

12 gauge is also good for general purpose. Get one of those, then go deer hunting if you like being outside. We could use more of them* and they taste good**. As I shamelessly do own a shotgun and do not go deer hunting. I wind up keeping around quail shot for the most part. It kills pests at the ranges I shoot them, and it loses nearly all its carry upon contact with the ground or significant vertical travel. Everything's flat around here. I worry more about the .22 caliber and its firing lines.

*hunters, like actually seriously.

**the deer, not the hunters. Mixups seem frowned upon.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Y'know, I don't think I've ever had venison.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Didn't that happen in Kill Bill or am I trippin

I don't know. I hated that movie and saw it once a long time ago.

Y'know, I don't think I've ever had venison.

It's good in sausage or stew.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't know. I hated that movie and saw it once a long time ago.

Not a big fan of it myself but pretty sure that in one of them a shotgun full of rock salt is a plot point...

It's good in sausage or stew.

For the record, Commodore is conflating the issue of eating deer meat you hunt with actually hunting for subsistence. While I know a number of people (mostly members/employees of my union) who hunt and eat the food they catch, all of them are sport hunters and none are in any way dependent on the food they get from hunting to eat.

They also mostly hunt with crossbows and not guns though.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I saw Kill Bill in Japan, careful to ensure that it was the subtitled version and not dubbed. I didn't know there was a whole section of the movie that's in Japanese. (Later, I learned that the huge fight at the end was in black-and-white in the US version.)

It's good in sausage or stew.

I like sausage and stew.

 

[Farm Boy]

Stronger flavor than beef, chewier. Arby's had a venison sandwich available for one weekend in 2018. It was nice, not really an everyday thing.