The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[El_Machinae]

You don't think it's murder because you think it's morally legitimate to shoot someone who comes into your house for any reason? Quite aside from any other problems this mentality can and has led to people being shot for the crime of...being drunk and trying to get into the wrong house.

I slipped into a colloquial usage in some sense . In Canada, deliberately killing an intruder violates the principle of 'minimum reasonable force required to expel', in that the mens rea is to murder.

In Canada, it would be intent to murder. In 2nd A-ville, it's just murder in the colloquial sense.

Audacity.

 

[Commodore]

Now, you can be in Fallujah one day and back in civilian life the next and that's really hard on your psyche

Yeah, it is. I remember for months after I got back from deployment I would panic when I woke up without my rifle by my side. My wife had to drive everywhere too since I was paranoid that any broken down vehicle on the side of the road was a VBIED.

And those were just a few of the problems I had readjusting to life back here. I didn't really feel "normal" again until my unit started doing training exercises and wargames again in preparation for the next deployment.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Yeah, it is. I remember for months after I got back from deployment I would panic when I woke up without my rifle by my side. My wife had to drive everywhere too since I was paranoid that any broken down vehicle on the side of the road was a VBIED.

And those were just a few of the problems I had readjusting to life back here. I didn't really feel "normal" again until my unit started doing training exercises and wargames again in preparation for the next deployment.

I remember hearing a vet on a radio program say that he got pulled over for speeding a couple of times because he was driving like a maniac without meaning to. (Not to poke fun, but trash pick-up day must have driven that guy batty. )

 

[Manfred Belheim]

And these are the people trusted to look after our animals. Disgusting!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I slipped into a colloquial usage in some sense . In Canada, deliberately killing an intruder violates the principle of 'minimum reasonable force required to expel', in that the mens rea is to murder.

You don't know what an intruder has, and trying to find out might be the last thing a person does. If Canada doesn't acknowledge this they have an interesting definition of "reasonable". I hold that someone in their own house should value their own life much more than that of the intruder, to the point where even a small chance of the intruder killing them merits a trigger pull. Up to the person in question whether they're willing to risk waiting to see "how threatening this person who maliciously broke into the place really is".

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You surely have to factor in the fact that outside the US, in "civilised Western" countries at least, the probability that the intruder will have a gun is much lower in the first place. However, in those countries you're less likely to have a gun to defend yourself with anyway so it's kind of moot.

I have no idea what the gun situation in Canadia is like compared to the US though. I imagine it's relatively easy to get guns across the border into Canada so the chances of bumping into an illegal gun are still probably quite high there.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah, it is. I remember for months after I got back from deployment I would panic when I woke up without my rifle by my side. My wife had to drive everywhere too since I was paranoid that any broken down vehicle on the side of the road was a VBIED.

And those were just a few of the problems I had readjusting to life back here. I didn't really feel "normal" again until my unit started doing training exercises and wargames again in preparation for the next deployment.

Another issue that's tangentially related - war used to be long stretches of boredom punctuated by a moments of sheer terror. Since ~Vietnam, US soldiers have been moved from battlefield to battlefield at a much faster pace. I'm sure there's still lots of boredom but I think the moments of sheer terror are more frequent and with shorter breaks between them now than in the past.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You surely have to factor in the fact that outside the US, in "civilised Western" countries at least, the probability that the intruder will have a gun is much lower in the first place. However, in those countries you're less likely to have a gun to defend yourself with anyway so it's kind of moot.

I have no idea what the gun situation in Canadia is like compared to the US though. I imagine it's relatively easy to get guns across the border into Canada so the chances of bumping into an illegal gun are still probably quite high there.

It doesn't matter if the intruder "only" has a knife or some other weapon instead. I'm now reminded of that guy in the UK who killed a home invader with a knife despite there being multiple home invaders and him being older. He got in serious legal trouble for that, which is a joke, but I suppose that's par for the course for law enforcement there lately based on what I've been hearing about it.

 

[Samson]

It doesn't matter if the intruder "only" has a knife or some other weapon instead. I'm now reminded of that guy in the UK who killed a home invader with a knife despite there being multiple home invaders and him being older. He got in serious legal trouble for that, which is a joke, but I suppose that's par for the course for law enforcement there lately based on what I've been hearing about it.

He did not get in serious legal trouble for this. He was arrested straight away as would happen for any fatal situation, and the police made it clear that he was not in trouble for this about as soon as they could. He did get in trouble from the traveler community and have to move, which is a terrible thing.

 

[Lexicus]

You don't know what an intruder has, and trying to find out might be the last thing a person does. If Canada doesn't acknowledge this they have an interesting definition of "reasonable". I hold that someone in their own house should value their own life much more than that of the intruder, to the point where even a small chance of the intruder killing them merits a trigger pull. Up to the person in question whether they're willing to risk waiting to see "how threatening this person who maliciously broke into the place really is".

Do you get a real thrill out of the idea of shooting a drunk person who blundered onto your property?

 

[EgonSpengler]

I think it's worth noting that discussing how to handle a home-invasion scenario concedes that a home-invasion is a risk worth arming oneself against. iirc, there is a demonstrable correlation between the presence of guns in homes and increases in domestic homicides and suicides.

 

[Lexicus]

I think it's worth noting that discussing how to handle a home-invasion scenario concedes that a home-invasion is a risk worth arming oneself against. iirc, there is a demonstrable correlation between the presence of guns in homes and increases in domestic homicides and suicides.

I mean yea. But of course all the little snowflakes get happy feelings from having a gun and don't care about the facts.

The most common use of that gun is Daddy murdering the family and then killing himself because the wife tried to escape his abusive ass with the kids.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I mean yea. But of course all the little snowflakes get happy feelings from having a gun and don't care about the facts.

The most common use of that gun is Daddy murdering the family and then killing himself because the wife tried to escape his abusive ass with the kids.

Well, you have to admit, Christian Slater was pretty smooth in True Romance. "It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it." I might have a little man-crush on Christian Slater.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Do you get a real thrill out of the idea of shooting a drunk person who blundered onto your property?

I wouldn't feel a thrill, or anything positive for that matter, from shooting any home invader regardless of their apparent motive. There's also a big difference between "on property" and "in your house despite that it was locked". I wouldn't even willingly engage someone in the former situation unless I knew it was safe, and in that case I wouldn't need a gun.

In terms of feeling less bad about shooting someone, it would go something along the lines of armed home invader > dangerous guy on hard drugs > belligerent drunk > random drunk person. I don't know how a random blundering drunk person would get inside the house. I wouldn't feel guilt very long over shooting the armed invader, but I'd still very much rather this scenario is never relevant to me.

I think it's worth noting that discussing how to handle a home-invasion scenario concedes that a home-invasion is a risk worth arming oneself against. iirc, there is a demonstrable correlation between the presence of guns in homes and increases in domestic homicides and suicides.

Correlation is not causality. I also dislike the notion that responsible people should have options limited because other people are idiots/criminals.

It's also roughly as sound an argument as prohibition of alcohol. Many people die due to alcohol abuse or DUI. Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to consume it regardless of your wishes? Maybe some people prefer such a legal scenario. I do not.

 

[Berzerker]

I mean yea. But of course all the little snowflakes get happy feelings from having a gun and don't care about the facts.

The most common use of that gun is Daddy murdering the family and then killing himself because the wife tried to escape his abusive ass with the kids.

is that a fact...

 

[Estebonrober]

is that a fact...

It is statistically more likely that a handgun in a home gets used on one of the family in that house, whether its suicide (most likely), domestic abuse (second most likely), or accident (still damn high).

Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that living in a home where there are guns increased risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%.4

Abstract
Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

"The Kleck-Gertz survey suggests that the number of DGU respondents who reported shooting their assailant was over 200,000, over twice the number of those killed or treated [for gunshots] in emergency departments," crime prevention researcher Philip Cook wrote in the book Envisioning Criminology.


https://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/18000422/11-facts-about-gun-violence-in-the-united-states


I do understand gun ownership is much much much much more about emotion than it is based on facts though. Mainly fear, some pride, a bit of snowflakiness. You know all the regular americana stuff.

 

[Lexicus]

is that a fact...

It is a fact that what I said is a more likely outcome than killing a crazed assailant who has broken into your home to murder you and your family, yes.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Correlation is not causality.

True. It may be that people who have guns are also, coincidentally, more homicidal and suicidal than those who don't. What we can say is that guns are a more effective and efficient means of ending a life than other methods.

I also dislike the notion that responsible people should have options limited because other people are idiots/criminals.

When you're talking about your option to kill, I don't really have a lot of sympathy for you. Sorry. It's like complaining that preventing worshippers of Huitzilopochtli from conducting human sacrifices is a restriction of religious freedom. Yes, it is a restriction of religious freedom. Sorry, no human sacrifices, I don't really care what your myths say about it. This nonsense about having a gun to protect yourself is a gun-owner's fantasy that doesn't really bear up to scrutiny. Guns make people less safe. Maybe it sounds like they ought to, but they don't. Again, sorry.

It's also roughly as sound an argument as prohibition of alcohol.

Thanks for bringing that up. The Prohibition era in the US was a fantastic experiment in what happens when you remove regulations and oversight from an inherently-dangerous product. It's why I'm in favor of legalizing drugs.

Many people die due to alcohol abuse or DUI. Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to consume it regardless of your wishes?

Yes. And, as it happens, we aren't allowed to consume it however we want. Anyway, nobody denies that alcoholism is a problem. We have social norms in place when it comes to drinking, and drunk driving rates have plummeted over the last 30 years due to the efforts of people trying to address the problem. Treatment for people with addictions is still insufficient, but that's more to do with our healthcare system than with the regulation of alcohol.


p.s. I'm surprised to find that 2,200 people die of alcohol poisoning every year. I didn't know it was that high. I don't really have time to look it up, but I wonder how that compares to other countries?

 

[Berzerker]

It is a fact that what I said is a more likely outcome than killing a crazed assailant who has broken into your home to murder you and your family, yes.

So you believe there are fewer home invasions than Daddy's shooting the wife and kids?

 

[Samson]

It is statistically more likely that a handgun in a home gets used on one of the family in that house, whether its suicide (most likely), domestic abuse (second most likely), or accident (still damn high).

Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that living in a home where there are guns increased risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%.4

Abstract
Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

"The Kleck-Gertz survey suggests that the number of DGU respondents who reported shooting their assailant was over 200,000, over twice the number of those killed or treated [for gunshots] in emergency departments," crime prevention researcher Philip Cook wrote in the book Envisioning Criminology.


https://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/18000422/11-facts-about-gun-violence-in-the-united-states


I do understand gun ownership is much much much much more about emotion than it is based on facts though. Mainly fear, some pride, a bit of snowflakiness. You know all the regular americana stuff.

There is something odd with what you are referencing. The 2nd paragraph numbers do not seem to agree with the 3rd, and the link you give (4) goes to Giffords law centre, who reference a dead link but presumably this NEFM review, which makes the claims but unreferenced.

Spoiler My sums for the risk ratios :

Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4).
odds ratio of 1.9 means your probability dying from a homicide if a gun is present is 1.9 times the probability dying from a homicide if a gun is not present. Therefore you have a 90% increased risk, and the rang is 10% to 240%, not 40 to 170%. The same numbers for suicide are 480% to 1,790% not 90 to 460%.

I cannot find where your abstract came from however.

p.s. I'm surprised to find that 2,200 people die of alcohol poisoning every year. I didn't know it was that high. I don't really have time to look it up, but I wonder how that compares to other countries?

I tried to look it up, but I could not find alcohol poisoning. Alcohol deaths you are you are 64th, with 2.26 per 100,000. You are 48th in consumption by country, so I guess you are doing pretty well.