The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[cardgame]

No difference between hands-free bluetooth and talking to a passenger, dude. Weird hill to die on.

I've heard of people having as many as 6 DUI arrests and they still have a car and are out and about in society, driving around. That's insanity.

 

[Farm Boy]

Makes sense again, but not the case. Passengers are present, and the conversation pacing bends around the activity in the car. Presentness matters. It's lacking in a conversation that is paced around being everywhere and nowhere, making it vastly more distracting, very similar to being smashed. Attention is weird like that. But the stigmas are different, and that matters for policy even though it shouldn't. Throw 'em all in the clink.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You're right. Which is precisely why people who have suffered a tragedy shouldn't be the ones who set policy. They aren't in the proper state of mind to put things in perspective. That's why we don't let victims of crimes or their families determine the punishment for those crimes.

We don't? Better inform your president and his band of "angel moms."

No difference between hands-free bluetooth and talking to a passenger, dude.

Actually there is. The passenger has a vested interest and is likely to help redirect your attention back to something if it is important. The person talking to you on your phone while you are driving should be held accountable for anything that goes wrong.

 

[MaryKB]

Objection! Logical fallacy: appeal to emotion.

Logic doesn't reach death-stick lovers. If it did, we'd have gotten rid of all the killing instruments long ago.

That's really not that many when you consider we have the highest rate of gun ownership in the developed world and a population of about 320 million. That's 0.01875% of the population getting shot. Perspective is everything. 60,000 seems like a lot when you post it by itself like you did here, but when compared to the total population of the US, it's a drop in the bucket and hardly something that warrants the amount of panic the anti-gun crowd tries to generate from it.

How many deaths are you okay with?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

No difference between hands-free bluetooth and talking to a passenger, dude. Weird hill to die on.

I've heard of people having as many as 6 DUI arrests and they still have a car and are out and about in society, driving around. That's insanity.

I actually knew someone like this, in Illinois of all places. He absolutely raged about government oppression because they put a breathalyzer in his car that he had to blow into in order to start the car. Like dude, you have nearly killed people while drunk driving many, many times, got caught a few and are a raging alcoholic to boot. But yeah, it's the government oppressing you.

And remember that @Farm Boy also rages against seat belt laws, for perspective.

 

[cardgame]

Logic doesn't reach death-stick lovers. If it did, we'd have gotten rid of all the killing instruments long ago.


How many deaths are you okay with?

Should we also ban hamburgers and steaks since red meat causes heart disease, the absolute leader in deaths in this country, with something like 10x the amount that firearms contribute to? How many deaths are you OK with?

We could save more lives by making healthcare universal than we could with any gun legislation, even if it's somehow a perfect freaking miracle and all guns disappear in the entire country, less deaths are had by firearms than completely preventable ones from lack of access to healthcare. There are better fights to be had. More winnable ones, with more impact.

 

[El_Machinae]

We should definitely elect a government that bans vaping for those less than 21. Because paternalism

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I'm with the sentiment, not sure about this exact example.

 

[Commodore]

How many deaths are you okay with?

I'm not "okay" with any deaths. I'm just pointing out that the narrative that there is a gun violence problem in the US doesn't really hold up when you look at the numbers. Proportionally, gun violence affect an extremely small portion of the population and, at worst, qualifies as a minor problem.

Also, in case you weren't aware, the 60,000 number we are talking about is not the number of gun deaths, but rather people who get shot. Only about half of people who get shot die and a significant number of those deaths are suicide and, in my opinion, suicide doesn't count as "violence". Last time I looked the number of deaths caused by one person shooting another person was something like 19,000 or so. That's hardly indicative of a gun violence problem in a nation of 320 million that, reportedly, has more privately owned firearms than it has actual people.

 

[cardgame]

Also, in case you weren't aware, the 60,000 number we are talking about is not the number of gun deaths, but rather people who get shot. Only about half of people who get shot die and a significant number of those deaths are suicide and, in my opinion, suicide doesn't count as "violence". Last time I looked the number of deaths caused by one person shooting another person was something like 19,000 or so. That's hardly indicative of a gun violence problem in a nation of 320 million that, reportedly, has more privately owned firearms than it has actual people.

Just as the inclusion of suicide is misleading, so is your framing on the numbers. The nation of 320 million only arms 120 million or less, maybe, and the number armed is the real number here.

 

[Farm Boy]

We should definitely elect a government that bans vaping for those less than 21. Because paternalism

Gross.

 

[Commodore]

Just as the inclusion of suicide is misleading, so is your framing on the numbers. The nation of 320 million only arms 120 million or less, maybe, and the number armed is the real number here.

Not really because anyone can be a victim of gun violence, not just those who are armed. So presenting the number of gun shot victims as a percentage of the total population, not just those who own guns, is entirely fair.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Actually there is. The passenger has a vested interest and is likely to help redirect your attention back to something if it is important. The person talking to you on your phone while you are driving should be held accountable for anything that goes wrong.

Well, I'd say your spouse talking to you on your bluetooth has a vested interest in you not dying and/or crashing the family car, with or without the kids in it... but I think your point is still valid, in the sense that a passenger has a better perspective on the driving conditions, hazards, obstacles, etc., and the self-preservation factor as well.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm not "okay" with any deaths. I'm just pointing out that the narrative that there is a gun violence problem in the US doesn't really hold up when you look at the numbers. Proportionally, gun violence affect an extremely small portion of the population and, at worst, qualifies as a minor problem.

What garbage. The US has orders of magnitude more gun violence than similarly wealthy countries, a rate comparable to countries with failed or quasi-failed states or countries with ongoing civil wars. The idea that it is a minor problem at worst is just self-serving nonsense.

We could save more lives by making healthcare universal than we could with any gun legislation, even if it's somehow a perfect freaking miracle and all guns disappear in the entire country, less deaths are had by firearms than completely preventable ones from lack of access to healthcare. There are better fights to be had. More winnable ones, with more impact.

We could save more lives with universal healthcare, so gun legislation isn't worth it? That is extremely poor logic...calories from red meat actually provide a rather enormous social benefit. The only social benefit of widespread gun ownership is, uh, more people dying from violent crime and that a group overwhelmingly comprised of white men can nurture demented fantasies about a race war.

Just as the inclusion of suicide is misleading,

The inclusion of suicide isn't "misleading" at all. Given that I'm unaware of a single example of someone who survives a suicide attempt not regretting it, it's borderline sociopathic not to believe society has a duty to limit suicide to the largest extent possible. There is data demonstrating a strong correlation between suicides and gun ownership rates, and access to a gun means a suicide attempt is far more likely to be fatal.

 

[El_Machinae]

I agree with Lex's gist. But there are many people who regret not succeeding in their first suicide attempt. "Many" because we live in a world of billions, so rare people are plentiful (just not common).

But given that huge numbers of people DO regret suicide attempts, trimming their net numbers seems like a net good. Like the 'mass killers', people determined to suicide don't need a gun to do so. So, you're mainly protecting those who just shouldn't have had a gun in the first place.

 

[Lexicus]

People who attempt suicide need help, not for self-serving "gun rights advocates" to argue their deaths aren't a problem in an effort to convince themselves and others that their fixation does not cause real harm.

 

[El_Machinae]

Nearly everyone needs help, but I am loathe to interfere with someone's self-determination. I'm agreeing with the gist, only am nit-picking on "I don't know anyone who doesn't regret their suicide attempt". Some people truly wish they were dead, and their inability to succeed at their attempt didn't help them.

 

[zxcvbob]

What garbage. The US has orders of magnitude more gun violence than similarly wealthy countries, a rate comparable to countries with failed or quasi-failed states or countries with ongoing civil wars. The idea that it is a minor problem at worst is just self-serving nonsense.

And Australia probably has more kangaroo violence than anywhere else. It's not a particularly useful statistic because it's too specific. Guns are hard to come by in the UK, so violent people tend to use knives. Whenever someone talks about "gun violence", I know they really aren't bothered by the violence, the guns are the whole point.

 

[Commodore]

The US has orders of magnitude more gun violence than similarly wealthy countries

That's a misleading statement and you know it. Those countries you are comparing the US to also don't have the level of private gun ownership the US has so any comparison on gun violence statistics us going to be skewed in favor of the nation without guns. It's like comparing deaths by motor vehicle between one nation that has cars and another that doesn't. Of course the nation without a certain thing is going to have far less issues with that thing than a nation that does have that thing.

Find a nation that is similarly as wealthy as the US, has the population the US has (so that eliminates Australia and Switzerland), the diversity in population the US has, AND the same level of legal private gun ownership. Only then will any comparison you make be a fair one. The point of course being that the US is unique in its situation, so there isn't any other legitimate comparison to it one can make and draw accurate conclusions.

, a rate comparable to countries with failed or quasi-failed states or countries with ongoing civil wars

This is false. You don't have to lie to kick it.

 

[El_Machinae]

If the gun violence is massively higher, and that correlates with gun ownership, then maybe the two are connected?