The USA is following the steps of the USSR

Ahovking

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Ok first of Lets look at the last 10 years of the USSR.

Soviet invasion of Afghanistan/ gets stuck as Us backs anti-communist terrorist (the ones we are fighting today) USSR backs out/ USSR with massive debt made by the war colape USSR.

USA invasion of Afghanistan/ USA gets stuck as Russia slowly grows its influence. well what happens next you tell me.

Reinventing collapse: the Soviet example and American prospects
this is a book in which i like and helps my point.


Housing
Soviet: Owned by the state, free rent, accessible by public transportation, stay during collapse
U.S.: Mortgages owned by banks, foreclosures/evictions, private vehicles needed
Transportation

Soviet: Public, continues to run, already in-place in populated areas
U.S.: Private cars/trucks, requires fuel distribution
Families

Soviet: Three generations under one roof, clustered geographically, used to hardship
U.S.: Nuclear families, spread out, entitlement
Employment

Soviet: Mostly public, salaries delayed, access to large stockpiles, people still show up a work
U.S.: Mostly private, shutdowns, layoffs, just-in-time inventory / shortages
Currency

Soviet: Token value, shared among friends, not essential
U.S.: Essential for survival, loaned not shared, critical
Food

Soviet: Kitchen gardens, public food stockpiles, home cooking
U.S.: Supermarkets, shipped by truck (no warehousing), fast food culture
Energy

Soviet: Vast oil and gas supplies, exports, government owned
U.S.: Oil imports
Soviet backwardness and disregard for personal freedoms make it more resilient to its economic collapse.
Orlov claims that the Soviet collapse was not because of communist ideology, or because of anything America did. (vii) In reality, the collapse came after years of military build up – in direct reaction to decades of U.S. military build up, especially in reaction to Reagan – and citizens’ discontent at their standard of living, largely caused by the problems of communist ideology.

He claims that the U.S., “is a country that enjoys bombing other countries,” but that Soviets, having been bombed in WWII, “think twice” about “inflicting that experience on others.” (pg. 36) Unless they happen to be Chechen, or course.

According to Orlov, the U.S. military could not defeat North Korea or the North Vietnamese. (pg. 37) In the first case, North Korea, the claim is entirely false; the U.S. and allied forces defeated the North Korean military quickly – this is a fact. Then China threw millions of troops into the fray, and the Soviets also directly assisted the North Koreans. The U.S. wary of nuclear war with Russia, did not press and settled for a ceasefire. The decision to leave Vietnam – to lose – was a political one, not based on U.S. military capability, which was clearly restrained. In both cases the possibility of nuclear war with the Soviet Union was a real concern.

Illogically, Orlov insists in linking the U.S. invasion of Iraq to the need to extract that country’s oil, and, again, speaks of a U.S. “military failure.” (pg. 41) The key here is that a military failure or victory is not the same as anti-insurgency or nation building. The U.S. military victory in Iraq was complete and stunning, and took only 21 days (and BTW defeated a lot of Soviet equipment). Orlov is wrong on the military count due to an apples-to-oranges comparison. And Iraqi oil? Obviously the U.S. did not invade to take that.

He faults the U.S. for jailing such a large percentage of the population, and notes it far surpasses anything the Soviets did, while mentioning the gulags and political prisoners incidentally. Context is everything. I agree the U.S. jails too many people, but hey have had a fair trial in the vast majority of cases, unlike Russian counterparts. More importantly, no one is disappeared in the middle of the night for political reasons, and most importantly U.S. prisons are not concentration camps (Gulags were) where millions died due to conditions. See moral equivalence.

Orlov sees hypocrisy in the U.S. calling for the Berlin Wall to come down, yet erecting a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border. (pg. 47) I don’t pretend to understand how an educated person can honestly make such an unmatched comparison. The Berlin Wall was akin to a prison wall, keeping oppressed people in. The wall (several fences in different locations, actually) on the U.S.-Mexico border is to keep illegal immigrants and drug dealers out of the U.S.
Dredging up the tired old example of Bush’s “mission accomplished” speech, Orlov (pg. 49), like many on the left, takes the banner on the USS Abraham Lincoln out of the actual context;

The banner stating “Mission Accomplished” was a focal point of controversy and criticism. Navy Commander and Pentagon spokesman Conrad Chun said the banner referred specifically to the aircraft carrier’s 10-month deployment (which was the longest deployment of a carrier since the Vietnam War) and not the war itself, saying “It truly did signify a mission accomplished for the crew.”

Orlov states as a matter of fact that most coal reserves, “have already been excavated and burned.” (pg. 104) This is the theory of one Dave Rutledge, chair of Caltech’s engineering and applied sciences division, who’s estimates on this are presented as accepted fact by Orlov.
I could go on and on, but there is no point.

Warning Please provide evidents to your argument thank you

http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/04/29/how_the_us_resembles_the_ussr.html
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAAhttp://suburbansurvivalist.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/book-review-reinventing-collapse/
 
What argument is to be made? The fact its 'similarities' between the US and collapse of the USSR is near total BS is irrelevant. The USSR was never a singular entity. In the UN it was Russias vote, Belarus's vote. Not USSR vote. Its just the non-Russia states in the USSR did basicaly whatever Russia told them to do.
 
What argument is to be made? The fact its 'similarities' between the US and collapse of the USSR is near total BS is irrelevant. The USSR was never a singular entity. In the UN it was Russias vote, Belarus's vote. Not USSR vote. Its just the non-Russia states in the USSR did basicaly whatever Russia told them to do.

no they were united by communist, Russia had 10x more troops than any of her other state and was spread out and the trouble only began to happen after the war with Afghanistan. for years they voted under Russia and if you know everything about the USSR you wold know that ever state had a sets in the Russia parliament and got there say thats why they call it a Union.
 
Obama is socialnazimuslimfascist and loves the USSR.

True story bro.
 
I think the OP did a good job of debunking Orlov.

I would add that the Afghan wars are different for a couple of reasons. First, the Afghan people were united against the USSR while we're essentially taking one side in a civil war. Second, the USSR invaded in order to colonize, while we never would have gone into Afghanistan had we not been attacked.
 
What type of evidents would you like?
 
I'd like mah Capitalism back plz. Not Socialism.
 
The important question here:

"Is the American system heading towards collapse the way the Russian system did in its last 10 years?"

The name of the Russian system was the USSR. The American system consists of the global interests the USA maintains in the form of NATO, US-Japan Security Treaty, USUK alliance, global capitalism, the "anglo-saxon model" and so on.

There are indeed parallels between the American system and the USSR in its last ten years -

i) Both systems were challenged by assertions of national sovereignty of major countries in their systems

Russia was challenged by Poland, by the disloyalty of its muslim Central Asian Republics, by the apathy of Eastern Europe.

America is seeing the US-Japan Security treaty being challenged, NATO members who won't contribute to the Afghan mission, the independence of South American countries - who make the Monroe doctrine look like a joke.

ii) Both systems were committed to unrealistic economic systems they were unable to reform

Russia could not resolve the contradictions of its Command Economy and was unable to seriously question or recognise the problems, let alone do anything about them, even when they became obvious.

American capitalism in the form of a mixed economy is failing badly. America has settled on a compromise in the form of a mixed economy of regulated capitalism and social welfare that fails to resolve the contradictions and failures in its system, choosing to wear ideological blinkers instead.

iii) Both countries were committed to unrealistic class warfare and sacrificed freedom for the blind struggles of social stratification

Russia was committed to blind destruction of freedom in order to impose a false system of stratification in the form of a unified working class. This concept was not workable and lead to corruption and crushing of individual initiative and social goodwill.

America is committed to contradictory models of class warfare. First the congress supports big corporations, then it swings towards extensive health reforms for the working class and underclass. Politics is turning into class exploitation which is limiting economic freedom and initiative in the same way that the communist class warfare did.

iv) Both countries were over-committed to an international role that burdened into responsibilities they couldn't afford.

Russia made commitments to its strategic periphery in Afghanistan and Eastern Europe, and also drained itself by sending resources out of Russia into Warsaw pact and international communist countries.

America has taken on a wide series of one-way responsibilities which can only be founded on a massive military system. It's foreign policy is draining its treasury, dividing its population and antagonising global opinion, instead of achieving productive goals it is becoming a burden and security risk.


There are two other similarities I will measure briefly

v) Both countries committed to a "culture war" full of contradictions and lacking realism. In the USSR, the creation of "Soviet Man" without individuality or nationality. In America "gender and ethnic equality" in the form of endless distracting and aggravating culture-wars and legislation that needlessly tie up the political and social system in pointless games when more pressing business should be on the agenda.

vi) Global rivals - America is being challenged by global rivals who proclaim their good intentions but who do not identify with the culture or goals of America and are not interested in its welfare.
 
Nuts! The OP and the post by Ayn Rand is NUTS!

Nuts Im telling ya!
 
I think the OP did a good job of debunking Orlov.

I would add that the Afghan wars are different for a couple of reasons. First, the Afghan people were united against the USSR while we're essentially taking one side in a civil war. Second, the USSR invaded in order to colonize, while we never would have gone into Afghanistan had we not been attacked.

Please brush up on your history. The USSR intervened in/invaded Afghanistan at the request of the Afghan muhajideen, the communist regime in power at the time. While this regime was not universally popular, it obviously did have some support, and the USSR took the side of this regime in their invasion. It was not "just an attempt at colonisation", though its justifiability is up for discussion.

The USA did not attack on the request of anyone, and its allies in the country are pretty much collaborators.

Whether or not the USA would have invaded Afghanistan or not without 9/11 is up for discussion. While both the Taliban and al-Qaeda are both generally disagreeable, and do have some cooperation, they are not nearly as intertwined as one might think.
 
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