There are more of us than there are of them

[Dekker]

No you don't have to do stuff you don't want to.

If I start a thread no one's forcing you to read it and there's no one stopping me posting it subject to the normal forum rules. Which I last read 2003 or so.

If you want to go and get up on a soapbox with a megaphone and say whatever you have my full support knock yourself out.

Doesn't mean passerbys have to listen to it.

What you do is up to you, it's imposing your beliefs on someone else is the difference.

And here's where your selective defense comes in, arguing against certain beliefs being imposed while advocating that Nazis be allowed to impose theirs.

 

[Zardnaar]

And here's where your selective defense comes in, arguing against certain beliefs being imposed while advocating that Nazis be allowed to impose theirs.

The Nazi lack the power to impose their beliefs. Note there's a difference between expressing those beliefs and acting in them.

Same thing here, I don't care what SJWs parrot, knock yourself out.

If the Nazi crosses the line into violence then I don't care what happens to them. Same thing with antifa. If the Nazis March down the street and antifa attacks them that's on antifa.

If the Nazis attack someone that's on them.

Note the violence can be throwing bottles, destroying property etc.

Note the Nazis that rallied in Charlottesville got identified and several lost their jobs. One can also keep an eye on them now as well.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you want to go and get up on a soapbox with a megaphone and say whatever you have my full support knock yourself out.

Doesn't mean passerbys have to listen to it.

Doesn't it? If I'm on the sidewalk blasting away with a megaphone as you walk by do you really have a choice in regards to listening?

 

[Zardnaar]

Doesn't it? If I'm on the sidewalk blasting away with a megaphone as you walk by do you really have a choice in regards to listening?

Well you'll probably violate some other law about noise control. You'll hear the megaphone but you can tune it out to some extent.

Using it in the park vs the street is probably a better idea. You might not get pinged for what you're saying but get pinged for being loud and disruptive.

 

[Dekker]

The Nazi lack the power to impose their beliefs. Note there's a difference between expressing those beliefs and acting in them.

Same thing here, I don't care what SJWs parrot, knock yourself out.

If the Nazi crosses the line into violence then I don't care what happens to them. Same thing with antifa. If the Nazis March down the street and antifa attacks them that's on antifa.

If the Nazis attack someone that's on them.

Note the violence can be throwing bottles, destroying property etc.

Note the Nazis that rallied in Charlottesville got identified and several lost their jobs. One can also keep an eye on them now as well.

Sure dude you cry about one or two antifa guys attacking Nazis and blather on about SJW speech being tied directly to that, and routinely ignore the far more frequent white supremacist violence and literal murder, but if course seperate that from white supremacist speech.

How you say it may be different from Patine but you're still saying the same thing.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sure dude you cry about one or two antifa guys attacking Nazis and blather on about SJW speech being tied directly to that, and routinely ignore the far more frequent white supremacist violence and literal murder, but if course seperate that from white supremacist speech.

How you say it may be different from Patine but you're still saying the same thing.

Not what I said at all. Anyone regardless of the reason resorting to violence should be prosecuted.

If a fascist kills someone I'm not opposed to the death penalty bad long as due process is followed.

I'm opposed to mobs whoever there may be doing extra judicial justice.

 

[Dekker]

Not what I said at all. Anyone regardless of the reason resorting to violence should be prosecuted.

If a fascist kills someone I'm not opposed to the death penalty bad long as due process is followed.

I'm opposed to mobs whoever there may be doing extra judicial justice.

Because mobs was part of the conversation?

Face it, yours and Patine's hysterical cries of BUT MA FREE SPEECH break down under reasonable discussion. You already just now supported his use of the censorship mechanism on this site, support the rules in place for posting, and said you support private entities to moderate their platforms as they see fit and fire who they please. So when you jump to his defense when he is attacking Cloud strife with made up lies in support of MA FREE SPEECH you are just supporting ignorance.

 

[Zardnaar]

Because mobs was part of the conversation?

Face it, yours and Patine's hysterical cries of BUT MA FREE SPEECH break down under reasonable discussion. You already just now supported his use of the censorship mechanism on this site, support the rules in place for posting, and said you support private entities to moderate their platforms as they see fit and fire who they please. So when you jump to his defense when he is attacking Cloud strife with made up lies in support of MA FREE SPEECH you are just supporting ignorance.

Bollocks nothing of the sort.

I'm not restricting your free speech in any way. If I didn't care I don't have to participate or use the ignore feature.

I've got no control over what you say it do. I do have control over what I want read and see.

You can be the world's biggest SJW and I don't care that much nor would I restrict your right to express those beliefs. Although I might ask you not to use a megaphone outside my house. Or between the hours of say 9pm to 7am or so.

 

[Dekker]

Bollocks nothing of the sort.

I'm not restricting your free speech in any way. If I didn't care I don't have to participate or use the ignore feature.

I've got no control over what you say it do. I do have control over what I want read and see.

You can be the world's biggest SJW and I don't care that much nor would I restrict your right to express those beliefs. Although I might ask you not to use a megaphone outside my house. Or between the hours of say 9pm to 7am or so.

So you agree that there are mechanisms to crate safe spaces for yourself and that you have the ability to make requests regarding the speech of others.

 

[Zardnaar]

So you agree that there are mechanisms to crate safe spaces for yourself and that you have the ability to make requests regarding the speech of others.

You can request whatever you like the other person doesn't have to comply.

A safe space is your private property, server, discord channel etc.

 

[zxcvbob]

So you agree that there are mechanisms to crate safe spaces for yourself and that you have the ability to make requests regarding the speech of others.

So you're saying his own house shouldn't be a safe space?

 

[Dekker]

So you're saying his own house shouldn't be a safe space?

Zard is the uber anti SJW and Free Speech over all type, well at least he tries to be in certain discussions especially when white supremacist rhetoric is being frowned upon and the merits of not platforming them are being discussed, so I'm glad to see that even he in all his anti SJWness sees the merits of safe spaces something he surely detests, and that there are reasonable limits that can be requested.

Well, not so much shame and intolerance. I did cite a corporation frowning on hiring racists but if racists want a job they'll just with hold that part of their lives from the screeners. If the consequences didn't exist their racism would still be diluted by interacting with non-racists, especially the people they dont like. Isn't that how racism declines with time? Not because Antifa takes to the streets to battle racists, but because turning the other cheek changes hearts.

For example, lets say a white racist at work says something racist and a black employee hears it. If the black employee tells the boss and the white racist gets fired, will he become less or more racist? What if instead the black employee gives him a 2nd chance, forgives him? Now the white racist owes his job to the black employee. Gentle persuasion is better than 'punch a Nazi' or shouting down racists.

Yes yes we know that all the racists wish that their racism is just tolerated and like to pretend to others that this toleration of their racism will magically make it disappear.

 

[Synobun]

I like these threads because it makes Dekker post more.

 

[Zardnaar]

Zard is the uber anti SJW and Free Speech over all type, well at least he tries to be in certain discussions especially when white supremacist rhetoric is being frowned upon and the merits of not platforming them are being discussed, so I'm glad to see that even he in all his anti SJWness sees the merits of safe spaces something he surely detests, and that there are reasonable limits that can be requested.

I have a concept of public sphere private sphere.

Using gay marriage for an example. Not letting them get married is imposing your beliefs on them. That's wrong tough luck gay marriage should be legal.

So the two gays run off to the nearest Catholic church to get married. It's their Church, your trying to impose your views on them tough luck find somewhere else to get married.

If you're a shop open to the public that's public sphere, if it's your house, church etc that's private sphere.

Safe spaces can be problematic ie we only let in XYZ people here which can also be used to exclude certain people with private clubs etc.

 

[Hygro]

This thread is about making friends and the people opposed are demonstrating why.

Patine very obviously wrote one thing and was lambasted for the opposite. When it was made clear, he was further criticized all the same.

I make fun of Patine’s style but I do it in a way that gives us a chance to be friends. People make fun of me and now that I’m older if it’s in good fun I join in.

At the end of the day the good team, the team that’s for love and wisdom, better use its goodness for good. When the bad guys make a move we don’t want to wait to test those yet to pick a side, we want them already and obviously with us.

This means being warm and honest. Actually honest. I hope to God some of you learn that. Some of you who think you know it. We need everyone, and definitely no less than the vast majority, for now and ever.

My hope is infinite, so I’m not going to quit just because I look back at my own team not only not putting in the work but arguing for why not to. There’s a lot of work to be done and too many of you are on the internet and not in each other’s houses. Well we have a house here and papa hygro is telling you to play outside and get mixed up with the other metaphors on the block.

You weren’t all born this liberal. I know because I was and it was lonely in the beginning. So take it from me, many things changed your mind and brought you here. Now go learn and share it.

We have hearts and minds to warm, people who, when the time comes they are feeling us and our groovy vibes. Anything less and we lose. It’s win time. Put the party in Democratic Party. Start winning points FOR your team not FROM your team. And definitely cheer for those who do, even when it isn’t the perfect form you hoped for. We’re in this together and let’s make together bigger and better. Neo-manichaean. More words. But I’m serious.

 

[Berzerker]

Yes yes we know that all the racists wish that their racism is just tolerated and like to pretend to others that this toleration of their racism will magically make it disappear.

I dont think racists want their views tolerated, I think they want an endorsement. But how else does racism disappear if not for their victim's forgiveness? If a friend tells a racist joke you dont have to get in their face full of bluster and righteous indignation, just dont laugh and they'll get the idea.

 

[Dekker]

This thread is about making friends and the people opposed are demonstrating why.

Patine very obviously wrote one thing and was lambasted for the opposite. When it was made clear, he was further criticized all the same.

I make fun of Patine’s style but I do it in a way that gives us a chance to be friends. People make fun of me and now that I’m older if it’s in good fun I join in.

At the end of the day the good team, the team that’s for love and wisdom, better use its goodness for good. When the bad guys make a move we don’t want to wait to test those yet to pick a side, we want them already and obviously with us.

This means being warm and honest. Actually honest. I hope to God some of you learn that. Some of you who think you know it. We need everyone, and definitely no less than the vast majority, for now and ever.

My hope is infinite, so I’m not going to quit just because I look back at my own team not only not putting in the work but arguing for why not to. There’s a lot of work to be done and too many of you are on the internet and not in each other’s houses. Well we have a house here and papa hygro is telling you to play outside and get mixed up with the other metaphors on the block.

You weren’t all born this liberal. I know because I was and it was lonely in the beginning. So take it from me, many things changed your mind and brought you here. Now go learn and share it.

We have hearts and minds to warm, people who, when the time comes they are feeling us and our groovy vibes. Anything less and we lose. It’s win time. Put the party in Democratic Party. Start winning points FOR your team not FROM your team. And definitely cheer for those who do, even when it isn’t the perfect form you hoped for. We’re in this together and let’s make together bigger and better. Neo-manichaean. More words. But I’m serious.

Sure yet we see Patine routinely mock cloud and others, others even not as, combative as some may say cloud is, who attempt to 'make friends' in reasonable discussion, and yet Patine just resorts to dismissing and attacking and not engaging, even when they reach out ask and to hear his ideas. So the flaw in your idea is that the other side, which ever it is, needs to be willing to be befriended. What I hope you are NOT suggesting, like berzerker seemed to do so above, is that when puerile or racist nonsense is spouted, that it just goes unchallenged or ignored in the 'hope' that the one who spewed it will see that, wow no one confronted them , so they suddenly they abandon their views. I've been alive long enough to have personally witnessed that deep seated viewpoints don't change like that.

I dont think racists want their views tolerated, I think they want an endorsement. But how else does racism disappear if not for their victim's forgiveness? If a friend tells a racist joke you dont have to get in their face full of bluster and righteous indignation, just dont laugh and they'll get the idea.

No, just like homophobia it 'disappears' by those affected not rolling over and going out and telling the world that they are human beings. The homophobes don't slowly come to accept over time, don't learn they are wrong by observing responses to their bigotry, or by being friended by gays, they need to be repeatedly told that they are wrong. And yes to hygros point, their gay friend telling them so does help.

 

[Hygro]

Thanks, I think it’s both. The uncool racists need to be shown and the relatively cooler racists will figure it out in berzerkers way. (Oh my god Hygro thinks racists can be cool! No, please reattach your head).

We need everything, a lot of more of a lot of things. Right now the shame knob is turned up pretty high and it could be turned up higher but the nozzle is spraying over the shower curtain so we need to work with other methods too while we get that fixed.

When Patine is saying he’s being misrepresented it’s true. When a group of people tell him it doesn’t matter because he’s annoying and paranoid for thinking they think it’s because he’s annoying, of course the gaslighting makes him lash out.

The bottom dog in the pile is going to fight the hardest and least elegantly.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, just like homophobia it 'disappears' by those affected not rolling over and going out and telling the world that they are human beings. The homophobes don't slowly come to accept over time, don't learn they are wrong by observing responses to their bigotry, or by being friended by gays, they need to be repeatedly told that they are wrong. And yes to hygros point, their gay friend telling them so does help.

Maybe that helps, but IMO what helps a lot more is when their not-gay friend tells them that they are offensive. The homophobe will very likely respond to the former with "I didn't really want a gay friend anyway" or otherwise justify how the lost friendship is the other person's fault. Personally I think the bigots should be totally isolated and left with no company but themselves.

I am proud every time one of my kids expresses surprise when their grandfather's open racism or misogyny is mentioned. There was no "we'll just not laugh and hope he gets it," no tolerance or befriending...just a straight out "if my kids hear one thing from you that I think is racist it will be the last thing you ever say in their presence."

 

[Berzerker]

What I hope you are NOT suggesting, like berzerker seemed to do so above, is that when puerile or racist nonsense is spouted, that it just goes unchallenged or ignored in the 'hope' that the one who spewed it will see that, wow no one confronted them , so they suddenly they abandon their views. I've been alive long enough to have personally witnessed that deep seated viewpoints don't change like that.

It matters how racism is challenged, one method may not actually reduce racism while another might work. The civil rights movement won major battles when preachers led the way, it loses battles when neighborhoods are torched and innocent people are hurt to get back at the man. Gotta keep the moral high ground.

No, just like homophobia it 'disappears' by those affected not rolling over and going out and telling the world that they are human beings. The homophobes don't slowly come to accept over time, don't learn they are wrong by observing responses to their bigotry, or by being friended by gays, they need to be repeatedly told that they are wrong. And yes to hygros point, their gay friend telling them so does help.

Who said gays cant point to their humanity? Thats exactly the kind of response I think works with homophobes. OTOH I lived in San Francisco during the civil rights era, gays had a riot and my friend's dad was a cop who got hit in the shoulder by a brick or chunk of concrete. I saw the wound, he could have died from it. I wasn't thinking about gay rights at the time.