There are more of us than there are of them

[BCheek]

We are very affected by the people we spend time with. If we adopt conservatives into our friend groups they will be moved. So will we, but there’s more of us, so they’ll be moved more, and that’s more important since electorally they have a minority advantage given the federalist system so we need to move them a lot for very basic and not even very left wing changes need to be made (climate, tax code, industry reregulation, government programs etc)

I have another piece of this equation which involves us buying armalites but we’ll save that for another thread.

It’s time to save America, liberals, and make the ultimate sacrifice and hang out with right wingers. Just bring a friend.

Yeah, that ship has sailed. Like 10 years ago.

1. You're assuming they'd even want to associate with you.
2. They don't care if you're the "majority."
3. Right wingers are the most relentless and obstinate people out there.
4. You're assuming your beliefs are correct therefore they'll adopt them.

I'm literally saying we should own guns so that they fear us. And like us!

Lol, owning guns won't make conservatives fear you or like you. They literally don't care what you or anyone else does. That's their shtick.

The homophobe will very likely respond to the former with "I didn't really want a gay friend anyway" or otherwise justify how the lost friendship is the other person's fault. Personally I think the bigots should be totally isolated and left with no company but themselves.

Or they'll call you an overly sensitive baby and shrug the lost friendship off as one that wasn't worth having in the first place and go on with their life.

 

[Dekker]

Thanks, I think it’s both. The uncool racists need to be shown and the relatively cooler racists will figure it out in berzerkers way. (Oh my god Hygro thinks racists can be cool! No, please reattach your head).

We need everything, a lot of more of a lot of things. Right now the shame knob is turned up pretty high and it could be turned up higher but the nozzle is spraying over the shower curtain so we need to work with other methods too while we get that fixed.

When Patine is saying he’s being misrepresented it’s true. When a group of people tell him it doesn’t matter because he’s annoying and paranoid for thinking they think it’s because he’s annoying, of course the gaslighting makes him lash out.

The bottom dog in the pile is going to fight the hardest and least elegantly.

Gaslighting? Patine misrepresents others and at a much higher scale than anyone does of him. He lashes out because many people see it, and call him out on it. In fact I have seen this forum be far more tolerant of Patine literally calling posters mentally unwell, accussing them of things they never said and doing so when they are not even part of the conversation, than do I see him being gaslighted, that's such a strong term for whatever it is you are describing. Also, I have seen cloud, Mary, Gorbles, others, try to have civil discourse with him, be polite, clarify themselves, ask his thoughts, and he's the one that keeps it on insult mode. It takes two to tango, he isn't some helpless victim. But maybe if he feels that way he will learn something about the power that speech can have.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Or they'll call you an overly sensitive baby and shrug the lost friendship off as one that wasn't worth having in the first place and go on with their life.

That's fine...I won't feel a loss. That's sort of the point. Of course, I'm not the guy saying that the solution involves befriending them. My approach is...different than that.

 

[BCheek]

That's fine...I won't feel a loss. That's sort of the point. Of course, I'm not the guy saying that the solution involves befriending them. My approach is...different than that.

Then I suppose the friendship wasn't worth much to begin with and the feeling was mutual. Conservatives will just continue being conservative.

What most people don't understand is that the conservative/liberal divide is more than just social engineering or learned beliefs. It's largely personality type with some environmental factors mixed in.

 

[Berzerker]

Lol, owning guns won't make conservatives fear you or like you. They literally don't care what you or anyone else does. That's their shtick.

Speaking of San Francisco, the Black Panthers were unintentionally very effective at promoting gun control with Reagan in Sacramento.

 

[BCheek]

Speaking of San Francisco, the Black Panthers were unintentionally very effective at promoting gun control with Reagan in Sacramento.

That belief simply goes back to the founding of the NRA, which promoted arming black Americans prior to the civil rights era. Black Panthers are usually quite aware of non-mainstream history that's been "lost."

 

[cardgame]

. They literally don't care what you or anyone else does. That's their shtick.

I wish!

 

[Gorbles]

Well, I guess I missed Patine invoking MLK as a criticism of "progressives", which in hindsight doesn't shock me.

It's a common enough viewpoint, especially in centrist circles, and for some reason none of them have ever read MLK's writings on the (white) moderate.

@Hygro

Just like our discussion earlier in this very thread, I want to believe in your good intentions. But I think your emphasis on reaching out is blinding you to the attacks Patine (and others) make.

This does demonstrate a flaw in trying to convince people "over", like you want to. Sometimes people will convince themselves there's absolutely no change required on their part, and often get more easily irritated when pushed, because they've internalised these beliefs (cognitive dissonance). I'm not saying this blithely, nor am I making a specific criticism of Patine. But this is a type of view you need to be aware of in your life, because it's not something that can be easily convinced, and yet it isn't necessarily indicative of any extremism either (i.e. to write off, as per earlier in the thread).

 

[Hygro]

Let me put this another way. When you’re not in your bubble, the clear mistakes in comprehension and assessment collapses everything subsequent in the minds of the outsider. You’re going to have to learn to speak the truth and that means a) knowing what you are responding to and b) knowing what you say.

I’ll give you an example: Mary explains “virtue signaling” a while back, condemns it and condemns whoever she was talking to, in a two paragraph post or w/e (this is by memory) and you liked the post. You post and ask for me to virtue signal in other words because it’s easier for you. I say you are asking me to virtue signal and by virtue of using that word you accuse me of crypto fascism. But the entire time I have been aware that you liked your CFC teammate using the same word as the explicit and total theme of a post weeks before.

Do you know this? Do you remember this?

I do for the same reason I died when patine, bottom dog in the dog pile, agrees with the other dogs and is told to be ashamed for disagreeing. Too funny! Classic.

Read what is written and know what is said, kill your reactions to when you skim because they won’t be accurate and definitely get the lines right before trying to read between them.

Yeah, that ship has sailed. Like 10 years ago.

1. You're assuming they'd even want to associate with you.
2. They don't care if you're the "majority."
3. Right wingers are the most relentless and obstinate people out there.
4. You're assuming your beliefs are correct therefore they'll adopt them.


Lol, owning guns won't make conservatives fear you or like you. They literally don't care what you or anyone else does. That's their shtick.

1) they do, try living in person
2) you missed the point completely, reread the the post you are responding to
I guess you need to do that before I waste any time...

 

[Farm Boy]

The vehicle of the "moral tale" is insidiously flexible in it's application of pushing to a Mr. Rogers social norm.

You are severely underestimating Mr. Rogers if you put him as an end-point dystopia, trendy as he is with Mr. Hanks putting him in the news. He knew what would play, he knew what absolutely wouldn't. His relatively radical message of kindness and acceptance was not adopted by the mainstream. The things they will not accept with kindness include much kindness. You could see it coming during interviews long after he had proven himself sincere, conversations with people from when he came out in advocacy of a different kind of television. The stares that really say "you gotta be shitting us somehow, you gotta like like like little kids or something." You can see it in this thread. People in general proved absolutely not up to the kindness of childhood. Don't get stupid about a party and dressing it up. Some specific people are *******s. You know they don't listen. You know they lie. It's what they do, the principles and colors they don are entirely of convenience. So don't let them stain good ideas, I suppose.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You are severely underestimating Mr. Rogers if you put him as an end-point dystopia, trendy as he is with Mr. Hanks putting him in the news. He knew what would play, he knew what absolutely wouldn't. His relatively radical message of kindness and acceptance was not adopted by the mainstream. The things they will not accept with kindness include kindness. You could see it coming during interviews long after he had proven himself sincere, conversations with people from when he came out. The stares that really say "you gotta be ****ting us somehow, you gotta like like like little kids or something." You can see it in this thread. People in general proved absolutely not up to the kindness of childhood. Don't get stupid about a party and dressing it up. Some specific people are *******s. You know they don't listen. You know they lie. It's what they do, the principles and colors they don are entirely of convenience. So don't let them stain good ideas, I suppose.

Alot of projection and kvetching here with no actual substance.

Just the usual then

 

[Hygro]

Gaslighting? Patine misrepresents others and at a much higher scale than anyone does of him. He lashes out because many people see it, and call him out on it. In fact I have seen this forum be far more tolerant of Patine literally calling posters mentally unwell, accussing them of things they never said and doing so when they are not even part of the conversation, than do I see him being gaslighted, that's such a strong term for whatever it is you are describing. Also, I have seen cloud, Mary, Gorbles, others, try to have civil discourse with him, be polite, clarify themselves, ask his thoughts, and he's the one that keeps it on insult mode. It takes two to tango, he isn't some helpless victim. But maybe if he feels that way he will learn something about the power that speech can have.

Ok now imagine there’s 8 patines all liking each other’s posts so if you believe in any kind of equality start at home.

 

[Dekker]

Ok now imagine there’s 8 patines all liking each other’s posts so if you believe in any kind of equality start at home.

So Patine is free to spout venom because he (usually) only garners a few likes or a couple posters agreeing) defending his views, so more of those who disagree should not speak up/like posts if ... it makes him realize his views are unpopular?

 

[Hygro]

Gaslighting:
Person 1) I agree with trans rights
Group of persons supporting each other 2) You’re a horrible person against trans rights
1) I just spoke in favor of trans rights, you just think I didn’t because you think that of me already
2) No, and I think that of you because you’re annoying
1) See you think I’m annoying
2) You’re paranoid for thinking this is a reaction to you


How’s that for a compression of two pages..

 

[Dekker]

Gaslighting:
Person 1) I agree with trans rights
Group of persons supporting each other 2) You’re a horrible person against trans rights
1) I just spoke in favor of trans rights, you just think I didn’t because you think that of me already
2) No, and I think that of you because you’re annoying
1) See you think I’m annoying
2) You’re paranoid for thinking this is a reaction to you


How’s that for a compression of two pages..

A terrible gaslight made up thing?

 

[Hygro]

So Patine is free to spout venom because he (usually) only garners a few likes or a couple posters agreeing) defending his views, so more of those who disagree should not speak up/like posts if ... it makes him realize his views are unpopular?

No it means have some grace when you’re on on top high giving each other. If 5 people disagree and want to respond to one person, the one person doesnt have the luxury of thinking as carefully in their counter replies so you can both win by taking the time to pick and choose what you want to say, and do it more coolly and fairly, and then they aren’t buried and won’t react as hard with so much adversarial energy piling up their way.

Have you never been on the receiving end of the CFC dog pile? It’s very different than finding a poster or three in one thread who happen to disagree.

A terrible gaslight made up thing?

Either you aren’t reading the posts or you’re aiming it at me and either way not this time dude.

 

[Dekker]

No it means have some grace when you’re on on top high giving each other. If 5 people disagree and want to respond to one person, the one person doesnt have the luxury of thinking as carefully in their counter replies so you can both win by taking the time to pick and choose what you want to say, and do it more coolly and fairly, and then they aren’t buried and won’t react as hard with so much adversarial energy piling up their way.

Have you never been on the receiving end of the CFC dog pile? It’s very different than finding a poster or three in one thread who happen to disagree.

For what it's worth I almost never like any posts. And depends on what quantity makes a dogpile, but I've been solo vs. a few arguing against my viewpoints a few times here yes. Also you make it out that only hastily done 'counter' responses are hard and when unpleasant, when, more often than not, it usually starts with a post saying some very unpleasant things, that creates the responses to it, usually crafted around the same time upon reading the post.

It's a forum, not a one on chat group, there will never be full equity on 'both sides' of any debate, regardless of topic. As I said, grace was extended often, but the responses were always insults. It's a two way street. Berzerkers racist in the workplace can't expect to go around being racist and getting surprised when his co-workers call him out and he gets fired. Where's your admonishment to his actions?

 

[Zardnaar]

CFC off topics always been left wing or at least as far back as 2003.

Berzerker and co are fairly rare.

 

[Dekker]

Either you aren’t reading the posts or you’re aiming it at me and either way not this time dude.

I read the posts. The main one in question was very vague and made by someone who has a long history of attacking Cloud even when cloud us not part of the discussion, mentioning cloud in a snarky opaque cement that did little to drive discussion forward. A few misinterpreted it, he clarified, and it was pointed out to him where the misinterpretation stemmed from. Later he did the usual complaining about being smeared and his viewpoints distorted while at the same time doing that of clouds viewpoints. Which is where I picked up the thread, completely removed from the original misunderstood post. If you think I've been unkind it's because my long long attempts at kindness towards this particular individual went nowhere, only allowed him to increase his, what he may call smearing, so ya no coddling does not always work and sometimes venomous views need to be challenged. He's all for free speech but blocked me though oh well, censorship wins again.

CFC off topics always been left wing or at least as far back as 2003.

Berzerker and co are fairly rare.

I would say it's fairly moderate but I guess we disagree on the spectrum.

 

[Zardnaar]

I would say it's fairly moderate but I guess we disagree on the spectrum.

It's moderate in terms of you get a variety of viewpoints without it being a complete flaming pile of poo.

When I joined it wasn't to far after Iraq war and Bush was president. It was better pre Twitter.