There are more of us than there are of them

[Patine]

Good thing African Americans have an average net worth of $759 million

It was an extreme example, I admit. Then again, @Cloud_Strife's view is on the other extreme. He really still seems to believe that social conditions have not changed or bettered AT ALL in his narrative since the 1940's to 1960's. This is how he portrays it. The very fact, for example, that Michael Brown, jr's death by arbitrary police violence attracted NATIONAL MEDIA ATTENTION AND OUTRAGE, a long search for justice of the officer involved, and commentary from big political, social, and entertainment figures, is a BIG sign that things have changed from an era where such an unjust killing would get no media attention and probably remain unknown outside the neighbourhood it happened in. @Cloud_Strife has the bad habit of DEMANDING social, legal, and political progress against social injustices, which is very understandable - but he NEVER acknowledges or accedes to what progress was actually been made. That's one of the big flaws in his narrative.

 

[Truthy]

I think Cloud uses they/them

People respond to the spirit of posts or based on where they think the post is pushing the discourse. People are likely to respond negatively to something that implies there isn't a lot more work to be done, even if it's true

Though gotta admit Cloud vs Patine is an amazing debate

 

[Patine]

I think Cloud uses they/them

People respond to the spirit of posts or based on where they think the post is pushing the discourse. Cloud probably responds negatively to something that implies there isn't a lot more work to be done, even if it's true

Well, if you treated a foreman of a construction site with a half-built building as though they were only just digging the foundations, you'd get a hostile, or at least very annoyed, foreman, and wouldn't make too much progress with them.

 

[Truthy]

Or more like the foreman is sitting on his butt saying "why do I need to work on this? The building is so much better than it was 6 months ago"

 

[Patine]

Or more like the foreman is sitting on his butt saying "why do I need to work on this? The building is so much better than it was 6 months ago"

You must be referring to somebody else. But there are several notable toxic posters I deal with constantly who always put words in my mouth I never say, or declare (excuse me, fabricate) intentions, motives, or RL facts about me that are absolutely untrue, and use these lies to attempt slanderous faux personal attacks against me. Although it grows wearisome and testing, I can clearly see through these Donald Trump- and Fox News show host-style rhetorical tactics.

 

[Truthy]

Yeah, nothing that can't be helped by adjusting your tone and writing style and thinking a bit more about your audience

 

[Patine]

Yeah, nothing that can't be helped by adjusting your tone and writing style and thinking a bit more about your audience

So, I'm to blame for other posters being toxic and disingenuous? The plot thickens...

 

[Truthy]

Now you're getting it

 

[Truthy]

Look man, we've got a fair amount of intellectual diversity here. Many of us make unpopular arguments and come under fire. But people are usually nice or respectful to each other. It depends a lot on comportment, just like in the real world.

 

[Patine]

Now you're getting it

All I'm seeing is another toxic and disingenuous attack of a Fox News host style. No substance, just garbage. You obviously do not live your handle name of "Truthy" - unless it's ironic.

 

[Patine]

Look man, we've got a fair amount of intellectual diversity here. Many of us make unpopular arguments and come under fire. But people are usually nice or respectful to each other. It depends a lot on comportment, just like in the real world.

So why do you and several decide to reserve a attempted character assassination based on lies, false assumptions, and fabricated motives on me out of the blue? I actually, in a broad sense, support a lot of the same things you do. But not YOU - as in the little cabal who are trying a smear campaign on me with no basis in reality. Anyone who does such crap, regardless of beliefs or demographics is, as the word @Cloud_Strife used, "scum."

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: Settle down before we have a big fight, people. Thank you.

 

[Hygro]

@Hygro

Yes. I post using my mind. Unlike many others, who use their butt.

Either way no idea how you came to he conclusion that in suggesting to fellow liberals to make friends with conservatives only we are already friendly. If anything it would suggest the opposite... and neither is what I am saying.

and had any interest in promoting, the brinkmanship of the stupidly over-simplified, braindead, socio-politically destructive and eroding

please please please,

Neo-Manichaean,

Yes!!!

I actually, in a broad sense, support a lot of the same things you do.

And thus it’s not Neo-Manichaean team assigning. And nor is it personal. Thus, something else.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm sure Kanye West, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson, Beyoncé, Barack Obama, and the Rev. Jesse Jackson live in abject terror every time they step out their door, and feel as if all their basic rights are stripped from them daily.

A good thought exercise is to write down, or just mentally tally the names of all the famous black people you can. Count them up. Then list the names of all the non-famous black people for whom you know by their first and last name. Count those up.

If you find that a substantial percentage, and especially if most of the black people you know/know of are famous people... its worth considering that 1.) you really dont know many black people; and 2.) your perceptions of black people are possibly very warped given the fact that your sample contains a substantial amount of folks who are so atypical for the demographic

In other words... if the black people you know are mainly "Kanye West, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson, Beyoncé, Barack Obama, and the Rev. Jesse Jackson", you're not in position to be "sure about" anything concerning the experience of black people... including Kanye West, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson, Beyoncé, Barack Obama, and the Rev. Jesse Jackson.

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh lord, you don't want white people to do that about outgroups of other white people now too, do you? They'll melt with all the different types of strain.

At a bare minimum they've been semi-prepped that they don't share experiences with some people rather than having transcended them.

Not that a bare minimum goes very far.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sure, when the assumption/point being made warrants it. They wont melt, just realise that their own perspective is usually exactly that, and only that.

 

[Farm Boy]

Optimist.

 

[Patine]

A good thought exercise is to write down, or just mentally tally the names of all the famous black people you can. Count them up. Then list the names of all the non-famous black people for whom you know by their first and last name. Count those up.

If you find that a substantial percentage, and especially if most of the black people you know/know of are famous people... its worth considering that 1.) you really dont know many black people; and 2.) your perceptions of black people are possibly very warped given the fact that your sample contains a substantial amount of folks who are so atypical for the demographic

In other words... if the black people you know are mainly "Kanye West, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson, Beyoncé, Barack Obama, and the Rev. Jesse Jackson", you're not in position to be "sure about" anything concerning the experience of black people... including Kanye West, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson, Beyoncé, Barack Obama, and the Rev. Jesse Jackson.

Yes, but my point is still that @Cloud_Strife still has the mistaken belief that the lot of African-Americans is as wretched as was in 1940's to 1960's and that absolutely no improvement or betterment has been made at all. And, my other point, they use that to believe in the myth of the "comradery, fellowship, good-will, and solidarity of all marginalized peoples," and doesn't believe any African-Americans could possibly be a threat to them on a hate crime level, despite the racial demographics of hate criminals against transpeople being notably higher in African-American perpetrators than European-Descended Americans, and in fact, they basically said ONLY White Supremacists/Neo-Nazis/Hard Christians EVER commit these hate crimes, and they are the only ones who need to be taken to task or opposed for them, and if they're defeated in a "myopic," it SEEMS as though it's happily ever after, and they said, more or less, that even a natural level of wariness or caution for potential hate crimes when among African-Americans, let alone calling out groups of African-Americans for hate crimes they have already committed or condoned against transpeople, or the LGBTQ community as a whole, or MANY of the vile things publicly said and incited against the LGBTQ community by public African-American speakers and advocates (which they said should NOT be censored, even though ALL Neo-Nazis, many seemingly on general principle, or just suspicion alone - Torquemada-style or Salem-style, no doubt), because that would be "punching down on a marginalized," - despite the fact that defies @Cloud_Strife's basic instinct of survival.

 

[MaryKB]

Your post sounds like you're suggesting that African-Americans, as a group, be included in conversations alongside White Supremacists/Neo-Nazis/etc as hate groups? Of course individual African-Americans commit acts of hate violence against transgender people (my understanding is that black transgender women in particular are among the most victimized groups), everyone knows this. But that doesn't men we need to "deal with African-Americans" like we need to deal with White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis. Those latter groups are exclusively hate groups, the first is an ethnic group, and I feel you're either being deliberately disingenuous or you're trying to weirdly deflect, again.

Also, would you please kindly refer to @Cloud_Strife by feminine pronouns instead of neutral? She's made her gender identity pretty clear.

She also never said those things you're accusing her of saying ... you claim people are putting words in your mouth, why are you then doing that to other people? You seem to be deliberately misreading her statements. Why does her position seem to feel so threatening to you?

 

[Patine]

Your post sounds like you're suggesting that African-Americans, as a group, be included in conversations alongside White Supremacists/Neo-Nazis/etc as hate groups? Of course individual African-Americans commit acts of hate violence against transgender people (my understanding is that black transgender women in particular are among the most victimized groups), everyone knows this. But that doesn't men we need to "deal with African-Americans" like we need to deal with White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis. Those latter groups are exclusively hate groups, the first is an ethnic group, and I feel you're either being deliberately disingenuous or you're trying to weirdly deflect, again.

Also, would you please kindly refer to @Cloud_Strife by feminine pronouns instead of neutral? She's made her gender identity pretty clear.

She also never said those things you're accusing her of saying ... you claim people are putting words in your mouth, why are you then doing that to other people? You seem to be deliberately misreading her statements. Why does her position seem to feel so threatening to you?

Not as a bloc, no. I'm just pointing that some of the worst anti-LGBTQ are among the worst such groups, along with White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis. Neither Whites, nor Blacks (nor any other inherent demographic) has 'group guilt or blame, or universal support for anything." My sloppy wording and phrasing belied my true intentions. My point is, if one is proposing a solution to anti-LGBTQ hate crimes, who can't myopically say "only White Supremacist are going to be targeted in this endeavour," but other groups who engage in such crimes (and, while I'm making clear I'm not instigating ALL African-Americans, their hate crime is often organized into groups and schools of thought as well, and toxic Internet chatter, and what have you, like nasty White groups - it's not just individual, random perpetrators all the time - but, definitely not all African-Americans, you are correct) must also be taken to task for what they have done, and such the rhetoric such individual groups and movements still spread. The fact is, there are quite a few rap and dancehall performers using their visible, celebrity status to spread this crap, and that just can't be ignored, and say, "we must focus on the White Devil, and just brush that under the carpet." It's counter-productive.

As for pronoun, I was told quite recently @Cloud_Strife uses "they" as by a poster who I am under the impression is a friend or ally, and @Cloud_Strife has never corrected me personally. It was not a matter of disrespect, but uncertainty.