They're Here...

[Borachio]

Who cares about the Chinese? According to that first comes, first served logic the USSR owns the orbit around earth, meaning that every rocket that passes by has to pay toll. Technically though the first species in space was Laika, right? So does this universe belong to the Russian dog overlords?

Actually, I think they sent some fruit flies up into space first.

And no doubt there were some bacteria in/on the first sputniks.

 

[Cassius Critzer]

but then you are ignoring the date ... Those Red bases on the moon , in 1949 , because Nazis had V-2s and Russian spies stole the Bomb . And nobody traditionally cares for the health of Chinese Moderator Action: <snip> . Kind of people American higher ups want to impress existed in 1949 as well . As there wasn't enough money for Supercarriers of the American Navy and bombers of the American Airforce .


edit : And guess what . People can infract you for mere mention of a claim of a claim that Germans tested a winged V-2 , suborbital and all that in April '45 . Which they didn't . That being the death of some guy possibly named Lothar Sieber in the Natter , but nothing compares to a Pentagon desired , Lockmart allowed PR Blitz , my "friends" elsewhere on the web , does it ?

Saying "Chinese Moderator Action: <snip> " would be like calling white people Moderator Action: <snip> . Kind of anachronistic don't you think?

Moderator Action: Quoting an offensive term is as bad as using it in the first place. Don't do this, please. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Commodore]

Oh, sure, I totally get it now. You're the kind of guy who would have happily volunteered to go to America coming 1500 and would've delightfully slaughtered all the Indios, taken their land, taken their women, taken their riches, and then gotten a sound night of sleep. After all, they were actually considered subhuman back then, which, following your reasoning makes it absolutely justified

Nah, the only qualifier I have is "Is it human?" If the answer is no, then we, as a species, have no obligation to respect any of its rights or claims. We can if we choose to, but we are not obligated to. After all, there's a reason all of our fundamental rights are called "human rights".

So no, I would not have happily gone to slaughter natives in the new world because those natives were still human. That means they would be entitled to all the rights any other human is entitled to.

Actually, scratch that. According to your post it's not even a necessity to be less than human, less than sapient, it is already enough that a group may be considered "primitive", less technologically advanced, for you to slaughter them.

Go read all my posts in this thread again. Let's see if you can figure out why this statement is a complete misrepresentation of my stance.

 

[Cassius Critzer]

I would be a great cosmic joke if minutes after having the first diplomatic exchange, the aliens suddenly pack up, blast off, and nuke the planet as it would be the only way to be sure of eradication ala Alien 2.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Nah, the only qualifier I have is "Is it human?" If the answer is no, then we, as a species, have no obligation to respect any of its rights or claims.

So no, I would not have happily gone to slaughter natives in the new world because those natives were still human. That means they would be entitled to all the rights any other human is entitled to.

The point I was making (that apparently went completely over your head) is that who is or who isn't considered human changes with the times. Not only were the colonized considered subhuman by the colonizers, no, some peoples like the Pygmy were literally considered monkeys up until the Renaissance, depending on who you asked of course. We do consider them human now, but that anachronism is irrelevant when talking about Spaniards in the 16th century. So if we applied your framework: "Is it human", the answer would have been "no". Your way of thinking enabled the colonizers to do the utmost gruesome things while justifying it to themselves. I am not saying you want to slay millions of Indios, I am saying your exact way of thinking led to genocide.

 

[Commodore]

The point I was making (that apparently went completely over your head) is that who is or who isn't considered human changes with the times. Not only were the colonized considered subhuman by the colonizers, no, some peoples like the Pygmy were literally considered monkeys up until the Renaissance, depending on who you asked of course. We do consider them human now, but that anachronism is irrelevant when talking about Spaniards in the 16th century. So if we applied your framework: "Is it human", the answer would have been "no". Your way of thinking enabled the colonizers to do the utmost gruesome things while justifying it to themselves. I am not saying you want to slay millions of Indios, I am saying your exact way of thinking led to genocide.

Okay, but none of that is even the slightest bit relevant to the discussion we are having. It seems like you just took this discussion as an opportunity to get on a soapbox about colonialism/imperialism.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I don't disagree, but this doesn't contradict anything I said. Could fidget spinners lead to the end of human civilization and/or the existence of this whole planet and its ecosystem? I suppose maybe

I honestly think it's more likely that they could than any messages we've so far sent out into space.

 

[uppi]

Actually our crappy radio and micro waves are the best method of reaching a general audience if you are purposefully trying to do that. Those portions of the spectrum travel decently well through space and don't require especially sophisticated receivers. Compare that to say, laser communications, which require a completely unobstructed line of site and sophisticated receivers that are looking in exactly the right direction.

Now if you want to transmit lots of information across the stars there are certainly better ways to go about it than radio and microwaves. But if you're just trying to say 'here I am' to anyone and everyone who may or may not be paying attention, then radio and microwave are among your best options.

I don't think this is as clear as you make it sound. For any observer near us, microwaves are probably the best choice to grab attention. But you would get much better range with a directed, higher frequency source like, for example, an X-ray laser. Granted, that would be harder to detect, but the much larger range at which it could be detected might make up the difference. To decide which method would be better, you would need to know the detection probability for each method. We cannot estimate that probability without wild guessing and the biased extrapolation of our own capabilities.

 

[warpus]

I honestly think it's more likely that they could than any messages we've so far sent out into space.

I agree it's unlikely, since the signals travel extremely slow and faster than light technology doesn't seem easy to come by.. not to mention the question mark over how many intelligent civilizations there are out there in the first place.

But with so many unknowns in there you really don't know, so why do something stupid that could wipe out our civilization, if you don't have to?

 

[Berzerker]

How do we know there aren't aliens listening to Pink Floyd right now? Maybe they have technology that can reach across space quickly picking up our airwaves.

 

[Borachio]

Assuming that the radio waves don't become hopelessly attenuated, human beings have only been sending them out into space for the past 100 years or so.

Therefore they can't have arrived at any alien culture which is more than 100 light years away.

Which isn't very far, imo.

I mean, it is fairly far.

But is it also likely that an alien culture capable of picking up our highly attenuated radio waves would have developed in what is, in cosmological terms, our near vicinity?

And even if they did, they would still need to travel at the speed of light for another 100 years to get here.

And would they, having picked up some early soap opera, therefore conclude that a 100 year journey would be worth the time and effort?

 

[Berzerker]

lets assume they can send out speed of light technology to retrieve information, people within 45 light years can listen to Dark Side of the Moon

 

[Manfred Belheim]

But with so many unknowns in there you really don't know, so why do something stupid that could wipe out our civilization, if you don't have to?

I'm just saying I don't see it as likely and don't even really see the case for it being a danger at all really.

 

[Borachio]

I think the Native Americans said much the same sort of thing (about not seeing it as being a danger at all really) to each other about the Plymouth Colony. And they weren't particularly wrong until 50 years later.

Mind you, they could actually see the Plymouth Colony. So I guess it's not absolutely directly comparable.

My poorly expressed point being that any sensible risk assessment would acknowledge the extreme unlikelihood of an alien invasion but also acknowledge the potentially devastating effects of such a thing.

And then multiply the two together and come up with a number less than 5 (OK let's broadcast our location to the cosmos in general as loudly as we like) or a number greater than 5 (OK, let's keep very very quiet).

Not so sure about the number 5, though. It could be merely 4. Or maybe a 6.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Mind you, they could actually see the Plymouth Colony. So I guess it's not absolutely directly comparable.

I'm going to go with "not remotely comparable".

 

[Borachio]

That, of course, is your privilege.

It's still a matter of the impact of an alien culture in both cases, whatever you're going with.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I don't think this is as clear as you make it sound. For any observer near us, microwaves are probably the best choice to grab attention. But you would get much better range with a directed, higher frequency source like, for example, an X-ray laser. Granted, that would be harder to detect, but the much larger range at which it could be detected might make up the difference. To decide which method would be better, you would need to know the detection probability for each method. We cannot estimate that probability without wild guessing and the biased extrapolation of our own capabilities.

You have to know where and when to point the laser to a much greater extent than radio and microwaves. And the receivers must be much more sophisticated technologically (or at least the ways we developed them) for an x-ray laser.

I can pick up the parts to make a radio or microwave alien detector for a few hundred dollars right now. No one has built an x-ray laser digital pickup that I know of. If you want to be heard by as broad an audience as possible you would stick to simple techniques before swapping to more sophisticated gear once the handshank has been made.

Oh sure this is all biased in the human experience but the physical and technical skills to build the different devices are drastically different in absolute terms.

 

[Hygro]

Or if we are to believe The Day After Roswell, captured nonhuman intelligent species technology was rigorously studied according to Colonel Philip Corso who was installed as an administrator over a division for captured foreign technology ie the Foreign Technology Desk. Then was shown this technology and told to oversee scientists, military and civillian,in the most secret group in the nation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_After_Roswell

Such things led to fiber optics,nitinol ( a memory metal), the first transistor, etc. Nitinol can be used to send current through in a proportional way, and that in turn contracts the metal by a repeatable amount, and this can be used to incrementally move.

Or that drone may have antigrav properties, something actually alluded to in leaked technical drawings. And was actively piloted under controlled conditions. TR-3B
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(UFO)

It is hypothesized that this information is compartmentalized and thus one alphabet agency doesn't know on purpose what another does for plausible deniability.

To test what servicemen would do when exposed to startling top secret information, a disinformation program was created, or many of them, in which a soldier would accidentally by design be exposed to false or incomplete data pointing to nonhuman intelligent species, sometimes labeled extraterrestrial biological entities (EBE) and then to see if they cracked and told anyone. Then they have deniability as a parallel counterintelligence project oversaw this to test readiness and leaks.

Some early UFO reports were actually the prototype drone program called RPV Remote Piloted Vehicle. Later a UAV unmanned aerial vehicle. Scroll to the late fifties USA.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_aerial_vehicle

Isn’t it amazing how we lucked on to alien technology just in time for it to continue our centuries old technological growth trendline? Almost suggests divine intervention.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

That, of course, is your privilege.

It's still a matter of the impact of an alien culture in both cases, whatever you're going with.

Well to me it's basically saying "some people were wrong about something once in hindsight, therefore the risks of something completely different happening in the future are greater".

 

[warpus]

I'm just saying I don't see it as likely and don't even really see the case for it being a danger at all really.

Something a lot of the natives who lived in North or America thought hundreds of years ago too I'm sure