They're Here...

[Borachio]

You assume that we are advanced enough to communicate with these hypothetical aliens and draw up treaties with them. Maybe that's why they're not talking to us, they view us as not capable of proper communication. We can sort of communicate with ants too you know, they use phermones, and we can simulate that to some degree. However, for us it's a very ineffective way of communicating, and an alien species millions of years more advanced than we are might very well view our communication methods (and capabilities) in much the same way.

I think your ant analogy works very well.

The more I think about it, the more I like it.

 

[Hrothbern]

Tossing another kind of alien in our discussion pool:

How about some alien civilisation where since aeons Robots have taking over and deleted their organic "ancestors" ?

 

[Yeekim]

But even if we go with your ants analogy, my point still stands. Would you advocate taking military action against all ant-kind if one of your family members was swarmed and killed by a colony of ants after accidentally stepping on their anthill? No, because, again, that would be an unreasonable response.

Not "military action against all ant-kind", no.
But I'm sure that most people would promptly take a can of gasoline and matches to that particular anthill, as well as any other they might encounter in their backyard.

People seek and destroy wasp nests in their gardens for far less.

Oh, sure, I totally get it now. You're the kind of guy who would have happily volunteered to go to America coming 1500 and would've delightfully slaughtered all the Indios, taken their land, taken their women, taken their riches, and then gotten a sound night of sleep. After all, they were actually considered subhuman back then, which, following your reasoning makes it absolutely justified

Actually, scratch that. According to your post it's not even a necessity to be less than human, less than sapient, it is already enough that a group may be considered "primitive", less technologically advanced, for you to slaughter them.

Isn't that a bit unfair? I'm unfamiliar with Avatar's backstory (I don't remember the movie mentioning why "unobtainium" was needed or what it was good for), but Commodore's justification as I understand it, is not that Na'vi were "primitive", but that they had something mankind needed for their survival. Which, if true, would be a key difference between that fantasy scenario and the conquest of Americas.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

My central point was not about Avatar, Yeekim, but rather about the fact that Commodore interprets the fact that a people are "primitive" (direct quote from his post, btw quite literally colonialism Jargon) to mean that their lifes are worth less than ours (their survival is not important, ours is) That is the exact same line of reasoning that biological racism follows.

He claims this is about the survival of "mankind" versus "aliens", but if you're woke to the fact that Africans were, at some point, considered by Europeans to be actually sub-human, you realize that, following this line of reasoning, a matter of semantics can lead to the brutal slaughtering and oppression of an entire continent. It really isn't hard to see.

There is no way around this, no way to redeem it. The survival of one sapient species that is advanced is more important than the survival of another species, which is primitive. This is entirely different from the humans vs ants scenario, since Commodore and others ITT did not consider ants to be sapient creatures.

You can of course spin this scenario further and anyone with half a brain can see that whatever "alien race" can just claim to be more advanced than us, can claim that we are not (insert their word for advanced sapience) and therefore has a legitimate claim to eradicate all of mankind. Do you genuinely not see how ridic this is?

 

[Yeekim]

You can of course spin this scenario further and anyone with half a brain can see that whatever "alien race" can just claim to be more advanced than us, can claim that we are not (insert their word for advanced sapience) and therefore has a legitimate claim to eradicate all of mankind. Do you genuinely not see how ridic this is?

If eradicating mankind was indeed absolutely, unavoidably necessary to survival of an Alien species, I really would not expect of them to spare us.
Were the tables turned, I certainly wouldn't spare them... regardless of their sapience or level of development.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Yeah, on purpose signalling to the rest of the universe that we exist is one of the stupidest things this species has ever done.

I think I'd put it pretty much at the bottom of the "stupidest things" list. Well below "inventing fidget spinners" for example.

 

[Colon]

You assume that we are advanced enough to communicate with these hypothetical aliens and draw up treaties with them. Maybe that's why they're not talking to us, they view us as not capable of proper communication. We can sort of communicate with ants too you know, they use phermones, and we can simulate that to some degree. However, for us it's a very ineffective way of communicating, and an alien species millions of years more advanced than we are might very well view our communication methods (and capabilities) in much the same way.

Biological development doesn't equal technological development. Biological development doesn't imply "advancement".

 

[Colon]

I think your ant analogy works very well.

The more I think about it, the more I like it.

Babylon 5 featured the anology. It's a great show, but one of many sci-fi shows that routinely confuses biology with technology, and totally misunderstands evolution.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

But even if we go with your ants analogy, my point still stands. Would you advocate taking military action against all ant-kind if one of your family members was swarmed and killed by a colony of ants after accidentally stepping on their anthill? No, because, again, that would be an unreasonable response.

People absolutely would and do do that. It's called pest control.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ants will fight back if attacked, at least if it is the warrior class, or some type of ant which only has worker-warriors anyway. It is how they manage to take out larger beings, including scorpions if need be (of course they sacrifice tens of ants in the process).
If they could develop some tech, humans would lose rather easily. It is the plot of the nice film, Phase IV

What is interesting about ants is that they did make some progress. Eg some developed using smaller insects, or cultivate fungi. Apparently there is no other progress, though.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I think I'd put it pretty much at the bottom of the "stupidest things" list. Well below "inventing fidget spinners" for example.

Given the distance of space our crappy radio and micro waves have little chance of making contact probably around 0%
We have more chance of exterminating ourselves honestly

 

[Manfred Belheim]

In the absence of any other legitimate claim to it? Sure. And since I don't see any alien settlements on it and I do see the flag of a human nation planted on it, I'd say that makes the moon ours.

So when you quoted that Eddie Izzard routine recently, you weren't actually being entirely humorous?

 

[warpus]

Biological development doesn't equal technological development. Biological development doesn't imply "advancement".

I don't disagree, but this doesn't contradict anything I said.

I think I'd put it pretty much at the bottom of the "stupidest things" list. Well below "inventing fidget spinners" for example.

Could fidget spinners lead to the end of human civilization and/or the existence of this whole planet and its ecosystem? I suppose maybe

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Given the distance of space our crappy radio and micro waves have little chance of making contact probably around 0%
We have more chance of exterminating ourselves honestly

Actually our crappy radio and micro waves are the best method of reaching a general audience if you are purposefully trying to do that. Those portions of the spectrum travel decently well through space and don't require especially sophisticated receivers. Compare that to say, laser communications, which require a completely unobstructed line of site and sophisticated receivers that are looking in exactly the right direction.

Now if you want to transmit lots of information across the stars there are certainly better ways to go about it than radio and microwaves. But if you're just trying to say 'here I am' to anyone and everyone who may or may not be paying attention, then radio and microwave are among your best options.

 

[warpus]

That's why we're looking at those types of communications when searching for life out there, right?

I suspect most life out there is smart enough to keep quiet, and that's one reason why we haven't found anything conclusive yet.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

That's why we're looking at those types of communications when searching for life out there, right?

I suspect most life out there is smart enough to keep quiet, and that's one reason why we haven't found anything conclusive yet.

Yup, that's a big part of it. The other part is we don't have the budgets to pursue more technically sophisticated detection methods with SETI efforts. And to go back to my previous post, those other methods do not lend themselves very well to outsider observations in any case.

It's totally possible some sophisticated civilization is lasing our planet on purpose waiting for someone to identify and decode the message and we miss it because we aren't looking in the right part of the spectrum or with the right equipment. But it's much more likely sophisticated civilizations are communicating with each other/themselves in ways we couldn't pick up if we tried.

 

[Cassius Critzer]

I think it is pretty telling of general lack of imagination, that the most popular alien """theories""" are about stupid humanoids like the greys or the reptilians. Also porn-stuff, like the Pleiadians or what those are called

But wouldn't it be great if they are sex crazed maniacs!?! That would make the religious fundamentalists go out of their gourd!

Or if they were all homosexual! Or believed in plural marriages of 12?

I would laugh until I had a heart attack. What a great way to go.

 

[r16]

and of course mankind claiming the Moon then naturally justifies ownership by the whom first set foot there . Pity that the Chinese Communist bases of 1949 do not count ...

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Who cares about the Chinese? According to that first comes, first served logic the USSR owns the orbit around earth, meaning that every rocket that passes by has to pay toll. Technically though the first species in space was Laika, right? So does this universe belong to the Russian dog overlords?

 

[r16]

but then you are ignoring the date ... Those Red bases on the moon , in 1949 , because Nazis had V-2s and Russian spies stole the Bomb . And nobody traditionally cares for the health of Chinese Moderator Action: <snip> Find another, less racist term, please . Kind of people American higher ups want to impress existed in 1949 as well . As there wasn't enough money for Supercarriers of the American Navy and bombers of the American Airforce .


edit : And guess what . People can infract you for mere mention of a claim of a claim that Germans tested a winged V-2 , suborbital and all that in April '45 . Which they didn't . That being the death of some guy possibly named Lothar Sieber in the Natter , but nothing compares to a Pentagon desired , Lockmart allowed PR Blitz , my "friends" elsewhere on the web , does it ?

Moderator Action: Please don't use racist epithets to describe people. It's offensive and is not permitted. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889