Think Rand Paul is an intellectual lightweight?

G-Max said:
Unless a person happens to exist in all 50 states simultaneously, I fail to see how this is relevant.

Why would he have to? He lives under tyranny either way. If the states are permitted the power which libertarian types are inclined to grant them, each will pursue and impose its own brand of tyranny on its people. It may not matter to you what the Alaskan suffers under, but they are our countrymen and fellow humans and any indignities they must suffer where their rights are stripped from them we all have a duty to combat. As it happens, one federal government is easier to redress than 50 individual provincial governments, each privy to its own corruptions, intrigues, and prejudices.

If you are serious about human rights, you will realize that the current system offers a more robust method for dealing with civil liberties than a more confederated system, where the guarantee of those liberties being held inviolate across the nation is even less than it is now.
 
Why would he have to? He lives under tyranny either way. If the states are permitted the power which libertarian types are inclined to grant them, each will pursue and impose its own brand of tyranny on its people.

Not if we also have libertarian-minded people in the state legislatures.

It may not matter to you what the Alaskan suffers under, but they are our countrymen and fellow humans and any indignities they must suffer where their rights are stripped from them we all have a duty to combat.

Please inform me of how I'm supposed to combat tyranny in a state where I'm not registered to vote.

As it happens, one federal government is easier to redress than 50 individual provincial governments, each privy to its own corruptions, intrigues, and prejudices.

On the contrary; fixing state governments is much easier because each state legislator represents fewer constituents, and therefore each voter has a stronger voice.

If you are serious about human rights, you will realize that the current system offers a more robust method for dealing with civil liberties than a more confederated system, where the guarantee of those liberties being held inviolate across the nation is even less than it is now.

Please explain to me how allowing Congress to impose the War on Drugs nationwide is more pro-freedom than allowing the states to have full sovereignty on the matter.
 
Are you really libertarian minded if you work in the legislature?
I think you're confused between libertarianism and anarchism. Libertarians believe in the rule of law. There is a self-preservation mentality in all forms of government that lends it to grow exponentially over time. Those working in government tend to grow it to justify their own existence. Libertarians seek to change this mentality completely. Libertarian legislators primary role is to safe guard our individual liberties, not pile on more legislation and bureaucracy. At the vary least a libertarian minded legislator occupies a seat that would otherwise go to the government growth party. There are over 200 Liberty minded candidates running this election cycle. I just discovered another one today! This Thomas Massie guy fits right in with the sentiments of my original post.

Both Massie and Paul oppose: The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), PATRIOT Act, SOPA and all restrictions on internet freedom. Awesome! Now that's a candidate I can get behind wholeheartedly.


Link to video.
 
Ron is none of those things. Please try again.

Yeah if you ignore his statements, his desire to change certain laws, his newsletters, his remarks in his own books etc

Ron Paul is a bigot.
 
How can the state be thuggish? A thug is a violent, criminal entity.
Is there something precluding states from being violent, criminal entities?

Wrong. State tyrants impose their tyranny on far fewer people.
Is the breadth of the regime a factor in determining how tyrannical it is? :huh:

It is harder to resist and oppose the wrongs of 50 disjointed, disconnected, sovereign tyrants than the wrong of just 1 tyrant.
Easiest of all to resist the wrongs of no tyrants at all. If we're taking the graph to its logical conclusion. :mischief:
 
Please inform me of how I'm supposed to combat tyranny in a state where I'm not registered to vote.
On the federal level. That was his point.

Is the breadth of the regime a factor in determining how tyrannical it is? :huh:
See, Texas is clearly more tyrannical than North Korea because it is larger.
 
It is harder to resist and oppose the wrongs of 50 disjointed, disconnected, sovereign tyrants than the wrong of just 1 tyrant.

Do you believe that the powers of the 50 current US state governors are greater than that of a sing current US President? I hope not, because you would be sourly mistaken.

And its irrelevant. States have their own constitutions to live up to, so ensuring the federal government lives up to its own constitution as well does not yield state tyrants.

Ensuring the federal government lives up to its own constitution in no way means the federal government goes away either. Even applying the most conservative reading of allowed federal powers and scope you still end up with one of the largest organizations in human history, which still has the power to compel certain things within the states.
 
However, this isn't really a libertarian POV. It's more Constitutionalist.

I think that this is an important distinction to make. The two often overlap, but they are different.

If you are serious about human rights, you will realize that the current system offers a more robust method for dealing with civil liberties than a more confederated system, where the guarantee of those liberties being held inviolate across the nation is even less than it is now.

For basic human rights, I'd agree with that. However, most of the stuff that government does is not basic human rights. I tend to think of the government as acting mostly like a referee; it has profound powers that can only be used in certain situations. If a player punches another guy in the face--okay, in a sport that isn't hockey--there are penalties. But the referee can't swing a game one way or the other just to make the game or the season 'better', whatever that means.
 
Not if we also have libertarian-minded people in the state legislatures.

I guess. That won't happen though.

Please inform me of how I'm supposed to combat tyranny in a state where I'm not registered to vote.

Lie down in the grass and take it? :dunno: There's no way to combat tyranny without voting.

On the contrary; fixing state governments is much easier because each state legislator represents fewer constituents, and therefore each voter has a stronger voice.

States are more politically homogeneous than the country as a whole, and state governments are subject to fewer regulations (a la the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. and no state constitution is as protective nor as comprehensive as the U.S. Constitution). It is easier to take and sustain a majority to impose your will under such political conditions. If the Southern states, for example, had been free to dissolve slavery of their own volition, it would have come much later if at all. The right for women and blacks to vote would also come later and never be guaranteed on a national level; again, if at all.

Please explain to me how allowing Congress to impose the War on Drugs nationwide is more pro-freedom than allowing the states to have full sovereignty on the matter.

Not sure I said anything about a war on drugs, but for a guy who whines about straw men a lot you sure like to make them. :rolleyes:

Easiest of all to resist the wrongs of no tyrants at all. If we're taking the graph to its logical conclusion. :mischief:

I'd be happy to follow that digression.

For basic human rights, I'd agree with that. However, most of the stuff that government does is not basic human rights. I tend to think of the government as acting mostly like a referee; it has profound powers that can only be used in certain situations. If a player punches another guy in the face--okay, in a sport that isn't hockey--there are penalties. But the referee can't swing a game one way or the other just to make the game or the season 'better', whatever that means.

Well, human rights and civil liberties are what I'm concerned with here.

Do you believe that the powers of the 50 current US state governors are greater than that of a sing current US President? I hope not, because you would be sourly mistaken.

Of course not.

And its irrelevant. States have their own constitutions to live up to, so ensuring the federal government lives up to its own constitution as well does not yield state tyrants.

Do you believe the state constitutions are as protective and guarantee as much in the way of rights and freedoms as the U.S. Constitution, with its very fine bill of rights and carefully enumerated powers?

I think history shows that states can and will abuse their powers within the extent that they are technically permitted to do so by the U.S. Constitution. The institution of slavery comes to the forefront of my mind in this case, when the states were so eager to keep their private fiefdoms that they revolted against their democratically elected government. And for what? Slavery? State's rights? No, it was to preserve the aristocracy, the power structures they had so carefully and elaborately built, and which they knew would fall if the federal government got half a mind about telling them all to cut out that slavery business.

addendum: I think the federal government is also prone to such abuses, but inasmuch as civil liberties are concerned the federal government is an excellent tool for enforcing necessary rights legislation on a nationwide basis.
 
GhostWriter16 said:
Note that the states are also bound by the US constitution. They are required to recognize the Bill of Rights and other amendments.

Of course. The problem arises when a Constitutional amendment is necessary and the states throw a hissy fit and rebel. Not all civil liberties have yet been secured: there is a long road to travel and if we leave it to the states it will take longer and be more painful.
 
The debt crisis he's referring to was created by the George W. Bush era Republicans and their tax cut and spend policies. Bush stupidly decided that he could keep the tax cuts for his rich cronies while spending billions on two wars. The Iraq war was one of choice and took resources away from the war in Afghanistan. With politicians like that we don't need enemies. We'll be our own worst enemy.
 
If a state secedes, they are as much our responsibility as Canada is (Not). In fact, that would probably make the journey easier with the other states. So I don't see what your problem is there (Unless by "Rebel" you mean something different than "Secede".)

A lot of the Civil Liberties that we don't have are the fault of the Federal Government. I suspect your viewpoint to be different than mine about what needs to be changed, and I do not know what issues you in particular see, but I'd expect you PROBABLY agree the Federal government does a lot of crap as well.

Now, just to use an example, gay marriage (Note: My bias is that I don't believe in it.) Now, for a Federal amendment, its going to take until 3/4ths of the states want it, while if you leave it to the states, SOME will legalize it right now. Some will want nothing to do with it, but I think that's their privledge. Now, if they decided to kill the gays, or arrest them, that would violate the Bill of Rights, which all the states are bound by, and so would not be permitted. But gay marriage? Not in the constitution. Not a right. So its a state issue.
 
If a state secedes, they are as much our responsibility as Canada is (Not). In fact, that would probably make the journey easier with the other states. So I don't see what your problem is there (Unless by "Rebel" you mean something different than "Secede".)

Secession is illegal. Hence.

A lot of the Civil Liberties that we don't have are the fault of the Federal Government. I suspect your viewpoint to be different than mine about what needs to be changed, and I do not know what issues you in particular see, but I'd expect you PROBABLY agree the Federal government does a lot of crap as well.

The Federal government is horribly bloated, abusive, corrupt, and sponsors tyranny across the world. It is not inherently good, that's silly, but the framework it exists in - the structure whereby we can legislate the law of the land - has the capacity to be used for great good. See: the amendments.

Now, just to use an example, gay marriage (Note: My bias is that I don't believe in it.) Now, for a Federal amendment, its going to take until 3/4ths of the states want it, while if you leave it to the states, SOME will legalize it right now. Some will want nothing to do with it, but I think that's their privledge.

Will they? Nothing's stopping them.

The states don't get a "privilege" to oppress, repress, or discriminate against anyone they want on the basis that they have the dubious "right" to do so.

Now, if they decided to kill the gays, or arrest them, that would violate the Bill of Rights, which all the states are bound by, and so would not be permitted. But gay marriage? Not in the constitution. Not a right. So its a state issue.

What about slavery? What about women having the vote? They weren't in the constitution until it was added via amendment. Gay marriage is a similar issue.
 
If a state secedes, they are as much our responsibility as Canada is (Not). In fact, that would probably make the journey easier with the other states. So I don't see what your problem is there (Unless by "Rebel" you mean something different than "Secede".)

A lot of the Civil Liberties that we don't have are the fault of the Federal Government. I suspect your viewpoint to be different than mine about what needs to be changed, and I do not know what issues you in particular see, but I'd expect you PROBABLY agree the Federal government does a lot of crap as well.

Now, just to use an example, gay marriage (Note: My bias is that I don't believe in it.) Now, for a Federal amendment, its going to take until 3/4ths of the states want it, while if you leave it to the states, SOME will legalize it right now. Some will want nothing to do with it, but I think that's their privledge. Now, if they decided to kill the gays, or arrest them, that would violate the Bill of Rights, which all the states are bound by, and so would not be permitted. But gay marriage? Not in the constitution. Not a right. So its a state issue.
Straight marriage isn't in the Constitution either. Should all of those Federal laws that deal with marriage (tax exemptions, spousal benefits, etc.) be stricken? If not stricken, should they be gender neutral to recognize that some marriages in the country are same sex?
 
Straight marriage isn't in the Constitution either. Should all of those Federal laws that deal with marriage (tax exemptions, spousal benefits, etc.) be stricken? If not stricken, should they be gender neutral to recognize that some marriages in the country are same sex?
Some libertarians are consistent enough to have this position. Of course they don't advertise it much.
 
See, Texas is clearly more tyrannical than North Korea because it is larger.

First of all, Texas isn't tyrannical at all, second, its about te size of the government, not the area.

If a North-Korea type government took over the US, (And I don't just mean some form of communism, I mean same type of leadership, same policies, exc.) the one in America would be worse.

See and that's the flaw of strict constitutionalism.

I disagree. I think that there are fundamental differences between a gay and a straight relationship, and so I think its acceptable to treat them differently. I do think at the Federal level any benefits that are given to a straight couple should be given to a gay couple, but I think states should be allowed to decide not to use the word "Marriage" if the people living in that state do not wish to recognize state marriage. I also recognize the right of any state to decide they disagree with me and decide to recognize said marriage.

In any case, if you want to change that it would be by constitutional amendment, not by a mere law. That's how the constitution works.
 
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