Think Rand Paul is an intellectual lightweight?

I disagree. I think that there are fundamental differences between a gay and a straight relationship, and so I think its acceptable to treat them differently. I do think at the Federal level any benefits that are given to a straight couple should be given to a gay couple, but I think states should be allowed to decide not to use the word "Marriage" if the people living in that state do not wish to recognize state marriage. I also recognize the right of any state to decide they disagree with me and decide to recognize said marriage.

The word "marriage" has much more important and salient benefits than simply those that come with federal paperwork. Also what kind of differences between gay and straight relationships necessitate treating them differently?
 
I think you're confused between libertarianism and anarchism. Libertarians believe in the rule of law. There is a self-preservation mentality in all forms of government that lends it to grow exponentially over time. Those working in government tend to grow it to justify their own existence. Libertarians seek to change this mentality completely. Libertarian legislators primary role is to safe guard our individual liberties, not pile on more legislation and bureaucracy. At the vary least a libertarian minded legislator occupies a seat that would otherwise go to the government growth party. There are over 200 Liberty minded candidates running this election cycle. I just discovered another one today! This Thomas Massie guy fits right in with the sentiments of my original post.

Both Massie and Paul oppose: The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), PATRIOT Act, SOPA and all restrictions on internet freedom. Awesome! Now that's a candidate I can get behind wholeheartedly.


Link to video.

Look at his "Issues" page. He supports all the key Republican issues with all the usual Republican talking-point memo keywords:

America’s sluggish economy and persistently high unemployment are due to our government’s massive debt, over regulation of our businesses, and a tax system that punishes achievement. I am opposed to bailouts, corporate subsidies, undeclared wars, and so called stimulus spending — on economic, moral, and constitutional grounds.

Translation: lower taxes for "job creators" and de-regulating big business. Oooh what a rebel!

Artificially limiting our energy exploration and production through law and regulation threatens our quality of life and could mortally wound our economy. America, and Kentucky in particular, has abundant natural recourses [sic] including coal, oil, natural gas, shale, nuclear, solar, wind, and geothermal. I will support all domestic sources of energy as long as they can compete in the free market without subsidies.

Translation: let companies do their thing and drill, mine, and frack to their heart's content.

As the founder of a company, I understand how the tax code throttles the development of new businesses. Our tax system needs to promote economic growth, not punish it. I will support legislation to achieve a simpler, flatter, fairer tax code that is helpful, not harmful, to domestic job creation and economic recovery.

Don't punish success, blah blah blah, heard all of that before. Did he use "flat" and "tax" in the same sentence?

I will work vigorously to defend the rights of gun owners.

Well duh!

I believe that life begins at conception. I will vote against government funding of abortion services and will vote to defund Planned Parenthood. I believe no public money should ever be spent on abortion procedures, abortion pills, or embryonic stem cell research.

Obviously.

Corporate welfare must end. Companies should compete in the free market without government picking winners and losers.

"Corporate welfare" sure sounds bad... how vague is this though? The second sentence clues you in that is just another way of saying the old, debunked "let the market decide" talking point. Contrary to the feel-good talking point of "ending corporate welfare" this just winds up as another big business gift.

I support eliminating the federal Department of Education and returning K-12 funding and curricula to the states.

Eliminating the DoE is crazy time. States need Federal funding... although I don't know much about how curricula are determined but I suspect this statement is a little misleading in that the Feds do not mandate curriculum. As far as I know, crazy Texas school boards have as much influence on curriculum on a national scale as the feds do.

So he does not support SOPA... big whoop. Those talking points are cookie cutter Republican issues. Aside from my personal opinon that If Massie and his ilk had his way it would do far more harm than good to civil liberties in this country, Massie and his ilk are anything but original or courageous.
 
Secession is illegal. Hence.

Why exactly? There's nothing in the constitution that forbids it, a Supreme Court decision by the winning side in a Civil War is dubious proof, and the tenth amendment does give all powers not given to the Federal Government to the states or people.

The Federal government is horribly bloated, abusive, corrupt, and sponsors tyranny across the world. It is not inherently good, that's silly, but the framework it exists in - the structure whereby we can legislate the law of the land - has the capacity to be used for great good. See: the amendments.

I don't believe a government of that size can ever truly be good. At best, it could perhaps be less evil than the states, but I don't really agree with that.

Will they? Nothing's stopping them.

The states don't get a "privilege" to oppress, repress, or discriminate against anyone they want on the basis that they have the dubious "right" to do so.

Some have, and as time goes on, more and more states are doing so. I don't think all of the states will do it on their own, but I do think it will mostly be consistent red states that won't. You'll probably have all the moderates on your side within 20 years or so. Society progressively becomes more liberal each generation.

That said, as I said, I believe gay marriage is a bit different than straight marriage and so can be treated differently than straight marriage without any kind of discrimination actually taking place. But let's not focus on that one issue in particular. I'd rather focus on the broader issue of state's rights.

What about slavery? What about women having the vote? They weren't in the constitution until it was added via amendment. Gay marriage is a similar issue.

Well, there was a reasonably good argument made sometime in the 1840's that even though the Framer's did not intend for slavery to be banned in the constitution, the constitution itself did ban it based on the wording, and that the wording of the document itself, not the intent, is what should be viewed. I agree 100% with that. The US Constitution was a Federal power grab, but intentionally limited so the states would accept it. Alexander Hamilton would have been a modernn day US big-governnment liberal (I'm not denying that there are smaller-governnment liberals who are still left wing, there are, but Hamilton would not have beenn one) and he was a leading constitutionalist. I personally think Hamilton was a moron and wannabe-tyrant. James Madison was a Democratic Republican and Strict Constitutionalist, but he supported the same Constitution Hamilton did. I don't care what their intentions were.

That said, even still, slavery and women's rights were amendments to the constitution and totally appropriate. If you want to pass a constitutional amendment to allow gay marriage nationwide, go ahead. Just don't cheat and pass it in the House and Senate, because that's not the way to do it.

(Disclaimer: I don't agree with doing that, but it is a legal path to take.)

PS: The difference between gay marriage and those other issues is that black people and women were enslaved/not allowed to vote respectively on purely arbitrary grounds. They were denying constitutional rights even though "All men are created equal." If gay people were enslaved or not allowed to vote or evenn truly not allowed to marry, that would be similar. But its not. The laws don't restrict gays from marrying, they restrict marriage to the opposite gender. That may seem like a cop-out, but its not. The only comparison you can make is interracial marriage, and even that is a bad comparison because of fundamental differences in biology (A white woman or a black woman is still a woman, and same with men, an interracial marriage can still have kids and whatnot). Even then, an amendment would probably have been the technical legal path.
 
The word "marriage" has much more important and salient benefits than simply those that come with federal paperwork. Also what kind of differences between gay and straight relationships necessitate treating them differently?

"Necessitate" is a strong word. Remember that I support allowing states to legalize gay marriage if they want.

The simple facts are that gay marriage is NOT marriage. I have no problem with them having rights similar to marriage, but its NOT There are fundamental biological differences. The biggest one is that a gay couple cannot have kids. Since the original purpose of marriage tax breaks was to keep marriages together, and while that may not have been the whole of the intent, the best reason to do this is for the benefit of their kids.

Now, I know gay couples can adopt (Although I do think there should be restrictions on it) but its not the same thing exactly...

In any case, if tax-breaks are based on children, of course anyone who has kids should get the breaks. Including a single parent.
 
So if a state decided to ban straight marriage (and not recognize straight marriage from other states) and restrict marriage to gay marriage, that would be Constitutional? Or perhaps straight marriage could be restricted to those that had already gone through a 5 year gay relationship.
 
Why exactly? There's nothing in the constitution that forbids it, a Supreme Court decision by the winning side in a Civil War is dubious proof, and the tenth amendment does give all powers not given to the Federal Government to the states or people.

How is it dubious proof? The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution and they determined that secession was illegal. It is, therefore, illegal. You can point out the circumstances probably pre-empted that decision, but nevertheless it is now codified as such. Congratulations.

I don't believe a government of that size can ever truly be good. At best, it could perhaps be less evil than the states, but I don't really agree with that.

You're not reading the god damn words I'm typing. I didn't say the government was good, or could be good; it's meaningless. I said that the government can be used for good. Which it has. Do you want examples?

Some have, and as time goes on, more and more states are doing so. I don't think all of the states will do it on their own, but I do think it will mostly be consistent red states that won't. You'll probably have all the moderates on your side within 20 years or so. Society progressively becomes more liberal each generation.

That's true, but it does nothing for people who are suffering now.

That said, as I said, I believe gay marriage is a bit different than straight marriage and so can be treated differently than straight marriage without any kind of discrimination actually taking place. But let's not focus on that one issue in particular. I'd rather focus on the broader issue of state's rights.

OK, then.

Well, there was a reasonably good argument made sometime in the 1840's that even though the Framer's did not intend for slavery to be banned in the constitution, the constitution itself did ban it based on the wording, and that the wording of the document itself, not the intent, is what should be viewed. I agree 100% with that. The US Constitution was a Federal power grab, but intentionally limited so the states would accept it. Alexander Hamilton would have been a modernn day US big-governnment liberal (I'm not denying that there are smaller-governnment liberals who are still left wing, there are, but Hamilton would not have beenn one) and he was a leading constitutionalist. I personally think Hamilton was a moron and wannabe-tyrant. James Madison was a Democratic Republican and Strict Constitutionalist, but he supported the same Constitution Hamilton did. I don't care what their intentions were.

It's hard to parse an argument out of this. What are you saying?

Slavery was hardly "decided" anyway, nor was it implicitly banned by the Constitution's "wording." We had to fight over part of it at least.

That said, even still, slavery and women's rights were amendments to the constitution and totally appropriate. If you want to pass a constitutional amendment to allow gay marriage nationwide, go ahead. Just don't cheat and pass it in the House and Senate, because that's not the way to do it.

I don't see how that would be "cheating," but OK. I support a pro-gay marriage amendment.

PS: The difference between gay marriage and those other issues is that black people and women were enslaved/not allowed to vote respectively on purely arbitrary grounds. They were denying constitutional rights even though "All men are created equal." If gay people were enslaved or not allowed to vote or evenn truly not allowed to marry, that would be similar. But its not. The laws don't restrict gays from marrying, they restrict marriage to the opposite gender. That may seem like a cop-out, but its not. The only comparison you can make is interracial marriage, and even that is a bad comparison because of fundamental differences in biology (A white woman or a black woman is still a woman, and same with men, an interracial marriage can still have kids and whatnot). Even then, an amendment would probably have been the technical legal path.

"Arbitrary grounds" seems a little haughty to me. Women were well oppressed for many thousands of years, their liberation was quite an upheaval. It wasn't a clinical analysis of "oh well these grounds are arbitrary" so much as an awakening of a social consciousness that was, more than any before it, aware of the hypocrisy inherent in itself and committed to changing it. In other words, the double standard for rights between men and women is, indeed, persecuting women on grounds that are arbitrary, but so is marriage. Marriage is a wholly arbitrary system, especially the way it is practiced and recognized in the United States, and gay rights represents the rejection of that arbitrary definition, to instead replace it with an institution that makes no judgement on the pretense of gender.
 
One of my friends from college is an anarcho-capitalist who believes things (e.g. total privatization of the military) that even Rand Paul would think are too extreme. He's also a mathematical genius moving rapidly through a respected Ph. D. program in some branch of combinatorics. He has a deep understanding of history, most of the natural sciences, speaks several languages fluently, etc. I don't think the arguments against Rand Paul have anything to do with his intelligence.

Sounds like the guy is a genius, and if everyone was like him such a system could work and even have have a semblance of fairness, but he's still too stupid to realize that not everybody is like him.
 
Why exactly? There's nothing in the constitution that forbids it, a Supreme Court decision by the winning side in a Civil War is dubious proof...
Isn't the United States a common law jurisdiction, meaning that Supreme Court decisions are not merely interpretations of the law, but, at least to a certain extent, the law itself? I'll admit to being rather ignorant on the topic, if somebody better educated would like to correct me.
 
Isn't the United States a common law jurisdiction, meaning that Supreme Court decisions are not merely interpretations of the law, but, at least to a certain extent, the law itself? I'll admit to being rather ignorant on the topic, if somebody better educated would like to correct me.

You are absolutely correct. This is why Miranda v. Arizona, for example, was so important.
 
The biggest one is that a gay couple cannot have kids.
Gay couples can have kids, just exactly like straight couples. Some were conceived with a previous partner, some with fertility assistance from the medical establishment, some through sex with someone who is not their partner. Some kids are adopted. Straight couples have kids in all of these ways.

Now, I know gay couples can adopt (Although I do think there should be restrictions on it) but its not the same thing exactly...

Are you saying that adopted children aren't really their parents' children? This is really offensive.
 
Is the breadth of the regime a factor in determining how tyrannical it is? :huh:

Of course.

On the federal level. That was his point.

When Congress not only ends the War on Drugs, but tries to block the states from imposing their own forms of drug prohibition, I will consider that argument a valid one.

See, Texas is clearly more tyrannical than North Korea because it is larger.

"A factor" does not mean "sole factor". Please try again.

Lie down in the grass and take it? :dunno: There's no way to combat tyranny without voting.

But I DO vote. The catch is that I vote in California, not Alaska.

state governments are subject to fewer regulations (a la the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. and no state constitution is as protective nor as comprehensive as the U.S. Constitution).

You neglect the fact that the Bill of Rights (with the exception of Amendment I) applies to the state governments as well as the Federal.

The right for women and blacks to vote would also come later and never be guaranteed on a national level; again, if at all.

You play a very dangerous game when you grant the Federal government the power to decide who can or can't vote. If it had that power from the beginning, then it's likely that blacks and women would have been denied suffrage nationwide, and we would have needed constitutional amendments just to grant them suffrage in some states.

Remember that the power to correct wrongs on a national level is also the power to commit wrongs on a national level. Never assume that this power will be used wisely.

The institution of slavery comes to the forefront of my mind in this case, when the states were so eager to keep their private fiefdoms that they revolted against their democratically elected government. And for what? Slavery? State's rights? No, it was to preserve the aristocracy, the power structures they had so carefully and elaborately built, and which they knew would fall if the federal government got half a mind about telling them all to cut out that slavery business.

Slavery was a unique situation in that the slaves couldn't just "vote with their feet" - at least, not legally.

Of course. The problem arises when a Constitutional amendment is necessary and the states throw a hissy fit and rebel. Not all civil liberties have yet been secured: there is a long road to travel and if we leave it to the states it will take longer and be more painful.

As I said before, when Congress not only ends the War on Drugs, but tries to block the states from imposing their own forms of drug prohibition, I will consider that argument a valid one.

The debt crisis he's referring to was created by the George W. Bush era

LOL. Our debt problems go all the way back to FDR, but started getting especially bad once Nixon took us off the Gold Standard. Dubya was just continuing the practices of his predecessors, and so is Obama.

See and that's the flaw of strict constitutionalism.

No, it's a flaw of recognizing marriage as a legal concept.

Secession is illegal.

WRONG!

There's nothing in the Constitution prohibiting secession; as such, it is one of the powers that is reserved to the states by Amendment X.

Should all of those Federal laws that deal with marriage (tax exemptions, spousal benefits, etc.) be stricken?

Of course.

Translation: lower taxes for "job creators" and de-regulating big business. Oooh what a rebel!

Did you forget the part about opposing bailouts and subsidies? You know, the same ones that Republicans have such a collective boner for?

Translation: let companies do their thing and drill, mine, and frack to their heart's content.

Translation: lessen our dependence on foreign oil, thus improving our national security.

Don't punish success, blah blah blah, heard all of that before. Did he use "flat" and "tax" in the same sentence?

He also mentioned getting rid of the loopholes. You know, the ones that enable GE to get the IRS to pay them every year instead of vice versa? The ones that allow Warren Buffet to pay a lower percentage than his secretary? Rand is just taking a libertarian position and spinning it to appeal to conservatives.

Obviously.

Translation "I will terminate unconstitutional Public funding for private organizations... you guys are against abortion, right?"

"Corporate welfare" sure sounds bad... how vague is this though? The second sentence clues you in that is just another way of saying the old, debunked "let the market decide" talking point. Contrary to the feel-good talking point of "ending corporate welfare" this just winds up as another big business gift.

No, dude. "Corporate welfare" is the gift. "Ending corporate welfare" is the opposite of a big-business gift.

Eliminating the DoE is crazy time.

Yeah, it's not like the states have their own departments of education or anything.

O WAIT.

States need Federal funding

Really? I thought they could support themselves with taxes.

So if a state decided to ban straight marriage (and not recognize straight marriage from other states) and restrict marriage to gay marriage, that would be Constitutional? Or perhaps straight marriage could be restricted to those that had already gone through a 5 year gay relationship.

As crazy as that is, the states can do it if they want.

How is it dubious proof? The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution and they determined that secession was illegal.

The Supreme Court has been wrong many, many times. In fact, they're not even granted the authority to "interpret" the Constitution; they usurped that power.

I don't see how that would be "cheating,"

It's using Congress to achieve a political agenda that Congress has no legitimate authority over.
 
Of course.
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But, like, howcumzit?
 
But I DO vote. The catch is that I vote in California, not Alaska.

Alaska can vote tyranny on itself and be very fine in doing so; what I am saying is they should not be given that privilege.

You neglect the fact that the Bill of Rights (with the exception of Amendment I) applies to the state governments as well as the Federal.

State governments play fast and loose with the Bill of Rights when it serves their interest to do so i.e. slavery.

You play a very dangerous game when you grant the Federal government the power to decide who can or can't vote. If it had that power from the beginning, then it's likely that blacks and women would have been denied suffrage nationwide, and we would have needed constitutional amendments just to grant them suffrage in some states.

Remember that the power to correct wrongs on a national level is also the power to commit wrongs on a national level. Never assume that this power will be used wisely.

Don't be so condescending. Women and blacks didn't have the right to vote until they were granted that right by the Federal government. Of course the same hand that giveth tooketh away to begin with, but the point is the system of disenfranchisement existed and was prevalent well before the precedent of "Federal government trumps State government" was established.

Slavery was a unique situation in that the slaves couldn't just "vote with their feet" - at least, not legally.

Slavery was a violation of human rights, one the South defended to the death to preserve.

As I said before, when Congress not only ends the War on Drugs, but tries to block the states from imposing their own forms of drug prohibition, I will consider that argument a valid one.

That's really more a product on developed puritan sensibilities than any particular abuse of power. The point stands that Congress was responsible for more liberations than State governments have ever been.

WRONG!

There's nothing in the Constitution prohibiting secession; as such, it is one of the powers that is reserved to the states by Amendment X.

Don't be dense. It wasn't as cut and dry as that. It was so ambiguous, in fact, that a war had to be fought over it. That war set the legal precedent for secession and, surprise surprise, the answer was in the negative.

The Supreme Court has been wrong many, many times. In fact, they're not even granted the authority to "interpret" the Constitution; they usurped that power.

Is this meant to be a joke or do you really have absolutely no idea how common law works?

It's using Congress to achieve a political agenda that Congress has no legitimate authority over.

It's still not really "cheating" if the legal system isn't specifically designed to prevent it. Given how often stuff like that occurs, it's hard to make that argument unless so much of what Congress does is also "cheating."
 
Does "Amendment X" mean a mysterious, hypothetical amendment that exists at the far-reaches of the Constitution, beyond what anyone has yet been able to read?

(Cos that would be kinda cool.)
 
Nope, its just the normal tenth amendment:p

Which, for the record, trumps any SCOTUS decision.

Is that your professional opinion or just a gut reaction to those nasty judges seizing power from those defenceless states?
 
Nope, its just the normal tenth amendment:p

Which, for the record, trumps any SCOTUS decision.
Nah, it's just your interpretation of the Tenth Amendment.

Thankfully, you're not in a position of power, and a bunch of guys in blue uniforms with guns made it inescapably clear what the valid interpretation was a hundred fifty years ago.
 
Nope, its just the normal tenth amendment:p

Which, for the record, trumps any SCOTUS decision.
No, the ruling of the Supreme Courts on amendments trump what is written there. The Supreme Court is the final arbiter on what the law says in practice. If you don't like it, get the amendment ammended, send another case before the Supreme Court to get them to change their mind (like Brown v. Board overturned Plessy v. Ferguson), or get Congress to remove an issue from the Supreme Court's jurisdiction.
 
Nope, its just the normal tenth amendment:p

Which, for the record, trumps any SCOTUS decision.
Well, I addressed that previously,
Isn't the United States a common law jurisdiction, meaning that Supreme Court decisions are not merely interpretations of the law, but, at least to a certain extent, the law itself? I'll admit to being rather ignorant on the topic, if somebody better educated would like to correct me.
But only Cheezy responded. As I say, I don't really know much about the topic, so I'm willing to be correct, but if American common law is much like English common law, it would seem to be the case that the SCOTUS decision represents the legally correct reading of the Constitution. Is there something that I'm missing?
 
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