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Third time lucky

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by mystyfly, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    We should probably go Mysticism soon, to foster a land block. I might also skip Pottery and go Wtg after Myst. We can expand pretty quickly here with IMP and some hammers in capital, but we'll need a crash plan.

    The red dot is ok, except I would try for that wheat if possible. Maybe 1SE of the dot, followed by where the chariot sits right now. Doesn't quite complete a block, but it's pretty decent.
     
  2. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Neither can I :lol: but I don't know how to disable that and ingame I see the tile yield.

    Red dot is just a suggestion and it's a fairly early suggestion so most likely we'll have to adjust according to izzy's plans. That city I marked should be Mardid as borders popped same turn as istanbul's did. Barcelona will be buddhism's holy city, maybe that would make it pop on the same turn as well..? It's true its low on food w/o food resource but it has oasis + 3 FP s with a few farms we're ok.

    I don't think istanbul has the food surplus to go cottage-wild however with the triple wine and spice we'll still get a reasonnable amount of commerce for buerocracy. Work mines during infra phases and specs whenever possible.

    I agree with bbp, myst before pottery for sure. I just picked that at random. IMO we can skip pottery before writing too, but that delays granaries.

    Some more comments will follow from ras as we did some discussing on IM.
     
  3. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

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    Istanbul won't get whipped any time soon so we don't need granaries for now.
     
  4. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Well growing to size 4 has no other purpose except the 2pop whip as we don't have a 4th good tile yet. I agree though generally that we won't do much whipping however it is quite a long way until myst > writing > library is done and we'll want to run specs then ASAP.
     
  5. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    I wouldn't skip pottery, to add another prerequesite. We might want a few granaries fast, and we need it if we want some cottages. So I would go myst -> pot -> writing.

    Honnestly flipping a tile in a capital bfc isn't easy. I wouldn't put my money on it. Furthermore, I might remind that every time we settled in the face of the AI in deity SGs, we received a pre 1000bc dow :mischief: ... I discussed the site one west of mysty's one (one north of those horses) with him, since he has a bit more food long term, and is less pressuring Izzy (and I fear mysty's dot won't keep its 3 most eastern tiles long...). It's true that it kind of mess the sites near the rice/cow resources. So mysty's site might be a keeper.

    Regarding micro, we can have the settler t39 growing size 4 and chopping it, working a 1f2h1c as tile 4. We can gain one turn if we go in slavery t 36 iirc (check my maths ;))
    I was then thinking at finishing the chariot, growing on another warrior then another settler. (or whip a worker before settler #2 if we don't whip the first settler).
    City two can go monument -> worker -> gra (or lib depending on the tech path). I think this city should grow our first GS as a quick lib will be needed here to build up culture anyway, and it frees Istanbul for settler/worker spamming.

    The exploring warrior should finish exploring that north west peninsula (starting going ne -> ne to unfog those riverside floodplains), the chariot keeps Istanbul, the second chariot protect the second city, and an additional warrior would be nice for military police in Istanbul.

    Let's prey we meet someone else, somehow :sad:

    Comments?

    Cheers,
    Ras

    edit: I didn't read the last two posts while doing this one, but regarding granaries, imo that 's when you are low on food that u want them the most...
     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I might consider pulling the red city back a bit since it is just going to contend with izzy super culture in that spot. Maybe 1SW of the Stone, which is actually not too bad of a city - I'd turn it into production/early specialist city. The area to the south and east of it is questionable and if Izzy gets that land so be it.

    Having trouble reconciling the area NW of where the red city might be. 1E of cows allows for chain irrigation/workshopping later across the desert, but I'm trying to get that FP in play somehow. There's just a whole lot of Peaks and Desert tiles. However, I think we want a city around there early to block regardless.

    edit: xpost with ras (i like your red city placement too - more green)
     
  7. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    I might add that I would probably settle 3rd city up north if we find seafood firstly as a blocking city and secondly to get a scouting WB out to find some more islands eventually.

    Regarding units, depending on settling pace we'll want 1-2 chariots as fogbusters, the warrior we have can go to istanbul as MP. I wouldn't build more warriors but stick to chariots.

    Regarding red dot city, I think the further we retreat it (like 1W of where it's now) the greater the chance that izzy settles close to us and thus increases our borders which would rather lead to early DOW. As to culture war with madrid, maybe I'm just too used to playing creative AIs as they suit me best, but, well we might lose those easternmost tiles, but that wouldn't be a huge loss as one of those two is a desert...



    edit: x-post with lymond
     
  8. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Heh, some x-posting going on here ;)

    Well, considering the city placement up there, we'll probably need to wait until we see the full shoreline up there to decide properly. We'll definitely settle in that vicinity so we don't need to pick one of the locations until the settler gets there which won't be for another 20 turns at least.
     
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'm almost hoping there is no fish up there as that would be a pretty bad city for a very long time. The tricky thing here is we have to settle a block city up there in somewhat marginal land, but at least there are resources. With the red city and a city 1E of cows or thereabout we complete the block. Everything north and east of there is no man's land.
     
  10. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    It's still a bit early to call this one semi-isolation, there could easily be someone stuck to the east of Izzy or another landmass accessible via workboat. The land is much much better but nothing too stellar, you're really gonna need some income here, don't delay Writing too long.
     
  11. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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  12. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Sorry, got carryed away a bit. I'll play tmr morning for sure.
     
  13. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Played till completion of second settler. We have also 3 charriots, 2 workers and a "ready to whip" barrack in the capital (no pun intended).

    I started by a switch in slavery in order to whip the settler



    The overflow went into another chariot (built another to grow back size 3, then went worker -> partial barrack ->settler at size 4)



    Our exploring warrior didn't find the good land we were hoping land... just land.
    He then proceed to follow the coast, dying to an archer some turns later



    Even if the barbs did delayed the settling, we were still able to beat Izzy by one turn! (She was headed to the same spot than us and was on the same tile when I settled :D).

    The city built a monument and got its horses improved. I put a granary as placeholder (can be whipped before we get writing, but another worker might be another possibility).



    Here is the situation when Istanbul finishes the second settler (where I stopped).




    We have enough gold to finish writing.
    One chariot should be monitored to reach 10 xp, which shouldn't be too difficult considering the amount of barbs (they got rid of our horse pasture in the capital at one point, which explains we are a bit behind in land improvements).

    Ras
     

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  14. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Looking good.

    Edirne should indeed build another worker imo as it's working unimproved tiles.

    Istanbul should build a MP warrior, followed by chariots until it hits 5. Then start on the 3rd settler that may be helped along by a chop. One of the workers buliding a road (??) can accompany the settler.


    One criticism I have is that our guardian chariots are too close to our borders, each unit fogbusts a BFC plus the corners, so they can be a few tiles off the boarder. As they have 2 MP they could easily catch barbs that are sneaking by.

    I would like to know whether there is some seafood north of cow/rice and whether there is a good site to the south of edirne. I see we're rather short on military so that might be unrealistic.

    As to what to do with our settler, I'm not sure. There is the obvious cow/rice/fp site. However I am leaning towards settling NE of cows. This will be a mediocre city at best but it will prevent izzy from settling up there and we can get a scouting WB out. Should we find out we're not semiisolated after all it would mean a big boost and worth dedicating 30 hammers to.

    Writing as next tech is good, then shut off research until library is done in istanbul.

    thrar is up, bbp on deck.
     
  15. Thrar

    Thrar Chieftain

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    Got it. Looks good, but I don't understand what happened to Istanbul's build queue, see below...

    South of Edirne the tundra starts, we might find some fur, deer or fish down there, but likely nothing that justifies settling there soon. When Edirne gets its border pop in 10 we'll know more.

    Why do we have so many partially built things in Istanbul? There's a chariot at 2 hammers already decaying and those barracks at 19. I don't see a pressing need for the barracks either; imo it would have been better to continue that chariot instead.
    I will slot in a warrior to provide MP after growth (in 4 after the settler). I'd rather build more chariots then instead of finishing the barracks, but it's already half-finished after all... What does the team think? More chariots sooner or slightly more experienced chariots later?
    We will be able to get either the barracks or one chariot before writing is in, then Istanbul will switch to library. I'd go for a chariot unless there's other input.

    I will move the chariots further out to fogbust, as well as any other chariots built later.

    Regarding the next settling locations, how about this?



    Blue dot is what mysty suggested, that seems to be the only reasonable north coast port nearby. Yellow dot is to fill the land between, but when farmed up, it will actually become a pretty decent GP farm - 3FP and one rice used exclusively, plus two more FP shared with Edirne.
    In fact, I propose settling yellow first with the settler we get next turn; it will become productive very quickly and doesn't even need a monument in the foreseeable future. Blue on the other hand only has one good tile and very low production, even after a border pop it won't have enough food to work more than one desert hill. We might even want to wait until CS for chain irrigation before settling up there. If Izzy settles it, let her - we take it later, it sucks anyway.
    To get a coastal city in the medium term, I'd rather look towards the west. Our 3rd settler might go somewhere near the wheat for example, although that won't happen in my set of course.

    I will switch Edirne to worker, but I don't think it needs to be whipped. Then follow up with a granary. If yellow dot is accepted I will move our workers there to farm it up. Builds will be granary followed by library.

    Why do we have -2 diplo with Izzy for "first impression"? Where does that come from? Do we want to OB with her when writing comes in? I'd say yes since we can't block her off anyway and the diplo might be nice to have later. We might even consider roading from Edirne to Madrid if any workers are getting bored.

    What do we research after Writing? I will shut down research until the library is done, but will still need to select a new tech. In semi-isolation, I don't think Aesthetics is all that useful, neither is Alpha. Masonry and Math for our pretty cool UB (Aqueduct with +2 :) ) might be nice, or Medit->PH for temples as Izzy will surely buddhify us soon. I guess I'd go for Masonry (->Math), we have that stone to be hooked up anyway.
     
  16. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    I also would've preferred no hammers in the rax but I guess those were put in there when horses were disconnected. I would've preferred another build like warrior or working on the settler, rax at this point is too costly for what it gives us.

    Agree with your dotmap, that's what I had in mind too. I'm fine with settling yellow first as well.

    I think that you can see the "first impression" thing means you're running some specific version of BUG/BUFFY/BULL/whatever, at least that's what I was told myself in another SG... It's a hidden diplo modifier. I'm fine with OB.

    Masonry while gathering money sounds good. Another option is fishing>sailing for the TRs. Afterwards, I'm thinking of maths > currency.
     
  17. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I guess I see the importance of getting a port city, but settling the blue city 1S on the desert seems to make for a much better city and allows for chain irrigation of all the green north of the city. Furthermore, that city would complete a full block. I'm interested to know what is in the fog SE. Maybe a decent port city there if we beat Iz to the area.
     
  18. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

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    We could plant a city between the rice and the cows to completely block off Izzy. It won't have fresh water but it'll still be a decent city. Or we could put it 1 SE of the cows and hope we can pop its borders before Izzy sneaks something by (unlikely).
     
  19. Thrar

    Thrar Chieftain

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    I just realized we can't even irrigate the northern grassland, that cow is in the way. Ugh. Maybe we better not go for the blue dot after all, a western port should be good enough. I agree with shyuhe on SE of cow then, it'll be even better as a GP farm than yellow.

    By starting with a monument and whipping it asap we could get the border pop to seal our borders about 20t from now. Another 3 or so turns faster by chopping it. If we OB as soon as writing comes in, the 10 turns before being allowed to cancel should elapse shortly before the border pop, so we'll be able to close borders if Izzy comes along.

    Considering that most of the land directly to her west is desert, how likely is it that she will try to settle in our west soon? After settling green dot (mixing yellow and blue...), the closest thing she could reasonably settle in the west would be about 15 tiles from Madrid. If we don't rush to block her asap, would the AI really try to do that?
     
  20. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    She won't settle past us just yet, but will galley-hop in the late BC's.

    Can you chain-irrigate via city if it's on desert? I would assume not, but not sure.

    I would settle only one city in the vicinity. 1SE of cow seems right and completes the land block. I'd like to check SE of Istanbul for seafood, though I'm not sure which unit to send there.

    Let the barracks and chariot hammers decay, IMHO. We really don't need a barracks, so I don't wanna spend another 30h on it, and 2h into chariot is nothing. I think we need another settler and worker rather quickly. Worker in Edirne right away. Settler in Istanbul, maybe before library. Warrior-Settler-Library, grow to 5 in the process, sounds good. No more chariots, IMHO. Push out the existing ones into deep fogbust positions and build some 3-4 warriors over the next couple of TS for MP and closer-in fogbust. We'll only need about 4 fogbusters total after the third city monument.
     

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