This is how schools in the USA function today.

[BvBPL]

There's a debate here in the states as to whether or not algebra and calculus should be necessary for most high school and college students. Apparently people point out that one rarely uses those mathematic systems as adults.

A question that arises is what would arise to replace those requirements. I think putting statistics in place of algebra and calculus at least for high school students would be excellent. Too few people understand statistics, but it is widely useful.

 

[Atticus]

We have "short" and "long" maths for kids of age 16-18 to choose from. The short used to contain derivative but no integration, while the long had them both. Now the derivation has been dropped from the short maths, and I think it's been replaced with more statistics. That's very well justified, since if you're not going all the way with the calculus, you won't probably need the derivative either.

Much of the statistics on the other hand can be justified the same way that arithmetics was in the elementary school: "if you don't know these, the shopkeeper will trick you into paying more". Just substitute "politician" or "banker" for shopkeeper.

 

[Commodore]

There's a debate here in the states as to whether or not algebra and calculus should be necessary for most high school and college students. Apparently people point out that one rarely uses those mathematic systems as adults.

A question that arises is what would arise to replace those requirements. I think putting statistics in place of algebra and calculus at least for high school students would be excellent. Too few people understand statistics, but it is widely useful.

I've always been of the opinion that we need more STEM subjects, not less, in our required curriculum for students so obviously I would not support getting rid of algebra and calculus. Basically, I feel elementary school through high school should be nothing but STEM subjects, while other subjects can be put off until college. This point is emphasized by the increasing STEM requirements employers are placing on employees, meaning those with underdeveloped STEM skills are only going to become increasingly unemployable as time goes on.

And with college costs continuing to climb with no indication that's going to change, we need to do everything possible to make kids employable right out of high school so they don't have to worry about putting themselves hopelessly in debt just for the possibility of securing employment.

 

[BvBPL]

Good citizens are more important than good employees.

 

[Commodore]

Good citizens are more important than good employees.

Snappy one-liners don't change the fact that these kids are going to have to make a living when they graduate.

Plus, part of being a good citizen is being a productive member of society. How can one do that if they can't get a job or have the skills to start a business that will actually be successful?

 

[Atticus]

I've always been of the opinion that we need more STEM subjects, not less, in our required curriculum for students so obviously I would not support getting rid of algebra and calculus. Basically, I feel elementary school through high school should be nothing but STEM subjects, while other subjects can be put off until college. This point is emphasized by the increasing STEM requirements employers are placing on employees, meaning those with underdeveloped STEM skills are only going to become increasingly unemployable as time goes on.

And with college costs continuing to climb with no indication that's going to change, we need to do everything possible to make kids employable right out of high school so they don't have to worry about putting themselves hopelessly in debt just for the possibility of securing employment.

That doesn't work that well, since much of the kids aren't interested on those subjects. You can't force people to learn if they don't want to. Usually they take home only the lesson that maths is boring and they suck at it.

As an example, think about something you find boring, or that you've done only reluctantly. After certain amount of work put into it, it doesn't really matter how much you do, you're not getting any better. The effort becomes unbearable and everything else suffers too.

If they'd learn more things that they like, they would probably eventually come across with something requiring STEM things and then want to learn it. They would have also less prejudice on their abilities.

 

[warpus]

IMO, the problem with maths education pretty much everywhere is that everyone has to go through the same stuff, whether they are interested and have skills or not.

One of the main problems, IMO, is that students aren't being taught how to understand the material and what it means, but rather just how to plug numbers into equations. Teachers focus on making sure students get good marks on tests, but they don't really give a crap whether the material and the concepts are actually conceptually understood.

Once you reach a certain level of math, you need to understand what is going on. Memorizing equations isn't going to do you any good. And if you spend your entire life memorizing crap and not really understanding the concepts, then of course you're not going to do very well once they start throwing questions at you you've never seen before. Someone who understands the concepts will at least be able to try to reason through the problem. Someone who memorizes formulas is going to be stuck forever.

As per your point, yeah. I liked how in high school we could either sign up for grade 12 basic math, general, or advanced. Advanced was regular math, general math was math for people who weren't good at math, and basic math was for idiots. I think they have eliminated this sort of system here, but I could be wrong.

I'm surprised high schools don't have a math class that teaches you how to balance your home budget. Or your allowance. Or whatever. People are entering the work force utterly unprepared for the real world. But hey, at least they know what equation to use to plug numbers into to convert moles to numbers of atoms.

 

[Commodore]

That doesn't work that well, since much of the kids aren't interested on those subjects. You can't force people to learn if they don't want to. Usually they take home only the lesson that maths is boring and they suck at it.

As an example, think about something you find boring, or that you've done only reluctantly. After certain amount of work put into it, it doesn't really matter how much you do, you're not getting any better. The effort becomes unbearable and everything else suffers too.

If they'd learn more things that they like, they would probably eventually come across with something requiring STEM things and then want to learn it. They would have also less prejudice on their abilities.

I don't know, the military did a pretty good job of forcing people to learn.

In all seriousness though: If kids find the subject boring, then that is a problem with teaching methods, not the subject matter itself. That means the appropriate course of action is to devise new teaching methods, not abandoning the subject altogether.

I also do not believe children should be allowed to dictate what they learn and don't learn based on what they find exciting. Children simply are not mentally equipped to make such decisions. For example: My daughter absolutely did not want to be potty trained. She hated having to stop what she was doing every half hour because my wife and I would tell her to go sit on the toilet. If we let her decide whether or not she should be potty trained, she'd still be in diapers right now.

That's what we have to do with students. We have to drill it into their heads that as much as they may hate STEM subjects, they have to learn them since they are going to be essential to their survival and success in the adult world. If we let students pick and choose what they learn, I guarantee there will be an unemployment crisis in the future as only a very small percentage of them will have the skills necessary for gainful employment.

 

[warpus]

Kids are always going to find sitting in a classroom boring. Maybe 5% of all stuff you can throw at them will be found "interesting" by the majority, but kids just want to run around and play. That's what they're hardwired to do, they're not hardwired to sit there for 8 hours and read.

We have to go back to failing kids, if they don't do well enough, and make them repeat a grade if need be. You can't eliminate the "it's boring" factor at all, that's going to be with us forever, unless we switch it up and let them learn about cartoons and unicorns. The problem is that there is no incentive for kids to want to learn, and no incentive for their parents to push them to learn, if there are no consequences of them not giving a crap.

 

[Kennigit]

Personally I feel/think math skills are determined for life by probably age 12 or so

I.e. you could give a math test to 12 year olds in the US and say with ~95% confidence to a threshold you determine that "you will never pass university level STEM subjects with more than a D average". I.e. effectively say to those kids with that threshold "you will never be a scientist or engineer".

And I believe that is a lot of kids too, but more importantly is that the resources thrown at the kid at that point is irrelevant to their later math skills

 

[Commodore]

Kids are always going to find sitting in a classroom boring. Maybe 5% of all stuff you can throw at them will be found "interesting" by the majority, but kids just want to run around and play. That's what they're hardwired to do, they're not hardwired to sit there for 8 hours and read.

We have to go back to failing kids, if they don't do well enough, and make them repeat a grade if need be. You can't eliminate the "it's boring" factor at all, that's going to be with us forever, unless we switch it up and let them learn about cartoons and unicorns. The problem is that there is no incentive for kids to want to learn, and no incentive for their parents to push them to learn, if there are no consequences of them not giving a crap.

That's why I'm glad my wife and I are in agreement that we will not let our daughter just coast through school. She turns five in May and she will be starting school the following school year (which will be in September). She's not going to a regular kindergarten though, nor is she going to a public school. We already have her enrolled in a school that specifically focuses on STEM subjects and they not only fail kids, but actually expel them if they fall too far behind. We purposely enrolled our daughter in a tough school like that because we want her to realize her potential and actually try to learn. She tests above average across the board in every subject, so it's not like she isn't smart enough to handle it.

 

[Atticus]

One of the main problems, IMO, is that students aren't being taught how to understand the material and what it means, but rather just how to plug numbers into equations. Teachers focus on making sure students get good marks on tests, but they don't really give a crap whether the material and the concepts are actually conceptually understood.

I don't know how it is in Canada, but US is famous for it's problem with the standardized tests, teachers getting paid for result and being inspected all the time.

The number plugging thing is odd also, since many students learn to expect it, and get mad if they'd have to think something. It may be a good survival strategy in some situations, but it shouldn't be the default teaching method.

In all seriousness though: If kids find the subject boring, then that is a problem with teaching methods, not the subject matter itself. That means the appropriate course of action is to devise new teaching methods, not abandoning the subject altogether.

The problem is that there isn't a way to make things interesting. If there were, it would be used already.

Check around, and you'll notice that people always suggest things that made them interested in maths or science. They don't necessarily work with someone else, and they may work on people differently at different times. You can take the kid to the fountain, but you can't force them to drink.

That's why I believe all those things should be made available to kids, but not forced unto them.

Of course, I also believe that there's certain amount of basic things that should be taught, reading, arithmetics, percentages, things about law etc.

Suppose kids had some amount of compulsory learning and then they could choose from things that interest them and are in some way educational. That way the could come across with the need to learn maths of physics already in the school not just the vague promise that they will need this in the future.

That's what we have to do with students. We have to drill it into their heads that as much as they may hate STEM subjects, they have to learn them since they are going to be essential to their survival and success in the adult world.

That's essentially what's happening now. With the exception that the kids who aren't interested can get a rest time to time.

I don't believe either that the workforce needs even the majority of the people to be that good in the STEM subjects. They probably just want those who are good in those subjects to be better. At least currently in Finland the attempt to teach everyone the same amount is holding part of the students back. Discipline works only to a degree, but it isn't an infinite source. It can do more bad than good.

Also, even the students who are interested in STEM subjects probably want to do something else for a while.

 

[warpus]

@Commodore My 3 year old niece is already well ahead of her age bracket when it comes to language (already fluent in Polish and English at a surprising level in both) and music (she can hum melodies and hit all the notes, as far as I can tell). Not sure about math yet, she's still too young, but she is incredibly curious, comes from a family of female intellectuals (my mom, her sister, both my sisters, etc.), so everyone here is going to be pushing this girl when it comes time to actually go to school and learn. My plan is to be the cool uhm math-teaching uncle. We'll see how that goes. My sister is thinking of enrolling her in French immersion, but they're not really sure yet if that is a good idea for someone already trying to make sense of 2 other languages.

I don't know how it is in Canada, but US is famous for it's problem with the standardized tests, teachers getting paid for result and being inspected all the time.

The number plugging thing is odd also, since many students learn to expect it, and get mad if they'd have to think something. It may be a good survival strategy in some situations, but it shouldn't be the default teaching method.

I'm not sure how the two systems are in terms of similarities, but I seem to see many. My aunt is a math teacher (in a Canadian highschool) and her main complaint is that the students in her classes are for the most part just not ready to understand any of the material. So all she can do is teach them to memorize the formulas.. which is what the tests focus on as well...

 

[BvBPL]

Plus, part of being a good citizen is being a productive member of society. How can one do that if they can't get a job or have the skills to start a business that will actually be successful?

I dunno. Magic. Same way they can write a resume or a business plan w/ no composition instruction prior to college.

 

[Commodore]

I dunno. Magic. Same way they can write a resume or a business plan w/ no compensation instruction prior to college.

I'm talking about the skills to actually do business. Everything points to the only work being available for humans in the future being work in STEM fields. That means any business someone wants to start is going to have to be a STEM business. So some kid out of high school may be able to write the best business plan ever, but it doesn't mean squat if they can't actually provide the service their customers want.

I mean, I could probably go out and start an engineering firm, but that business wouldn't last very long on account of me have next to no engineering skills. Like it or not, unskilled labor is just something humans aren't going to be doing in the future, since automation is getting cheaper and more sophisticated/reliable. So people who don't have the skills necessary to get skilled labor positions are essentially going to become worthless to society. Even the military won't be an option for the unskilled in the future as the militaries of the world move towards automating their combat forces.

 

[sophie]

It's alright, since we all know that the East is around where the Middle East is and the West is where the US is, the West Coast in particular.

So if we position the globe so that we look somewhat straight at China...

Spoiler :

wat.

Beijing and Tianjin and Guangzhou and Dongguan and Shenzhen and Fuzhou and Hangzhou may be to the West of California. But they're still to the East of Ürümqi and therefore in the Eastern part of China. And even though Ürümqi is very large by US/Euro standards (it would be 3rd largest in the US after LA and 5th largest in Europe after Berlin) it's still (relative) peanuts in China terms. 37th most populous city.

Just the 4 major coastal megalopoleis of China: The Pearl River Delta, The Yangtze River Delta, The Beijing urban region, and Fuzhou urban region represent nearly a quarter of the entire population of China. And that's leaving out Liaoning, Wushan, and Kaifeng/Luoyang

 

[Lord of Elves]

Twenty years ago, the American school system was pretty crappy. Sixteen years ago, George Bush Jr. and the Bush empire's friends in high places at American textbook and testing corporations set about making it even crappier through the systematic implementation of budget cuts, lay-offs et alia. The effect, intended or otherwise, of these reforms is to reduce the role of the teacher in the classroom to that of a glorified cue card-reader. Indeed, when almighty standardized tests are given, teachers are compelled to literally read cue cards word for word.

What the removal of the teacher does is create an environment where the material to be learned simply is. Especially in STEM subjects, this amounts to the "sink or swim" approach posters have described above. The role of the teacher is to furnish students with quizzes and tests to determine whether they are grasping the material appropriately, not to help them grasp the material. Students shouldn't expect help. Help is expensive. After all, the goal of the education being provided to students is to PREPARE THEM FOR THE WORKPLACE(tm). In the adult world of work, they will be expected to do their job from go. They certainly won't be coddled and spoiled by people teaching them things.

The lowering of standards and expectations also helpfully teaches people from a young age that the absurd and Kafka-esque "you can't get there from here" conditions extant in the schools are normal and should be expected. By doing so, we create ideal employees who will not question criminally low wages or Herculean hours. After all, school is designed to resemble the workplace.

 

[BvBPL]

So some kid out of high school may be able to write the best business plan ever, but it doesn't mean squat if they can't actually provide the service their customers want.

There'll be no squatting at all if the business doesn't have both skills. I'm pretty sure that our hypothetical business prodigy could find a job helping to manage businesses. Which, come to think of it, is a service that customers want.

Even the military won't be an option for the unskilled in the future as the militaries of the world move towards automating their combat forces.

Sounds like we'll need more ethicists. Robot ethicists, apparently.

 

[civvver]

There's a debate here in the states as to whether or not algebra and calculus should be necessary for most high school and college students. Apparently people point out that one rarely uses those mathematic systems as adults.

A question that arises is what would arise to replace those requirements. I think putting statistics in place of algebra and calculus at least for high school students would be excellent. Too few people understand statistics, but it is widely useful.

Calc and trig I'd agree, probably geometry too, but algebra? You really think people don't use it in life?

I mean there's tons of real world examples where algebra applies, like you have X dollars, you are saving for something that costs Y dollars, how many dollars do you need to save to make the goal in 6 months? Ok shorten it now to 3 months how much do you save? Sure it's really, really basic algebra but it's still algebra. And you'd be shocked how many people can't do it with variables on paper. Most adults can get to the answer using real world examples like I have 50 bucks I need to get to 500 in 6 months, ok I gotta save 75 a month, but they don't get the equation behind it.

I'd definitely be for teaching stats.

Grammar I agree is worthless. I was homeschooled, did very well and got a full academic scholarship to a private university, I honestly don't even know how I learned to read, I just did, and I never learned grammar. I don't know what an adverb is. Once in college though I look at my peers papers in speech and other writing courses and they were atrocious. Maybe they learned all the technical aspects of grammar but they couldn't write to save their lives.

 

[sophie]

Grammar I agree is worthless. I was homeschooled, did very well and got a full academic scholarship to a private university, I honestly don't even know how I learned to read, I just did, and I never learned grammar. I don't know what an adverb is. Once in college though I look at my peers papers in speech and other writing courses and they were atrocious. Maybe they learned all the technical aspects of grammar but they couldn't write to save their lives.

Given the run-on sentence and the bad tense agreement, maybe you should have taken some grammar classes.