This is why capitalism sucks

[CIVPhilzilla]

The standard of life for someone in Western Europe is generally better than for someone elsewhere in the world, and better than alot of people in the United States. Europe is actually doing rather well for itself.

Whats more, it's not really accruate to think of it as a 'hyrbid of socialism/capitalism'......the term 'wealfare state' is much more reflective.

CIA World Factbook:

Real GDP Per Capita

United States $ 41,800 2005 est.
European Union $ 28,100 2005 est.

 

[JerichoHill]

Cause I gotta be fair, it would be better to use purchasing power parity, or identify GDP pc as real and not nominal, to illustrate the differences of wealth between Europe and the US

Though, the point that Western Europe is not as well off as the US is entirely correct.

As for the OP, he is now taking a single case and using it to blanket blame an industry. Does not compute.

Dare I say that under, say, Despotism, Socialism, etc, this drug (or the drug before it) would not have even existed because the mechanisms that bring forth so many of these things which we take for granted (especially the productive process of such) are right now only found in inherently capitalistic systems?

 

[ainwood]

As the above post said this is immoral whichever way you look at it, I really can't see a justification for this at all? Can you tell me how it can be passed off as justifiable by any chance?

Because they've spent 100's of millions developing a new, better drug? Because there is only anecdotal proof that the old drug is actually effective? Because the old drug hasn't gone through rigorous testing to ensure its completely safe for ocular use and there are no side-effects?

I doubt it, it's just money really isn't it, the love of money is the root of all evil, pretty much all it's about. those responsible for this need to report a profit on this drug and are scared they might have to announce a loss, so rather than have to do so and lose face it risks letting people go blind, oh bravo *claps slowly* Braa friggin O

Well the *need* to report a profit is to prevent the comapny going bankrupt. You think sending a company out of business is about saving face? What about the jobs of the employees? What about the investors?

Its a bit hard to develop new drugs when you don't have an income stream.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Many people say here that not giving a treatment is no the same as causing the blindness. Then try this game: Morality game

I played the morality game. It was fun, albeit unrealistic. I don't have my results because Explorer crashed right after I took it. I think I had something like 63% parsimony. I also had something like a 37% geographic morality (I regard people closer to me as being owed more morally from me), which was lower than average.

I think tests like these are pretty silly because they don't address moral problems that actually occur in real life. In reality, most dilemmas are a matter of probability, not certainty. This is to say nothing of some scenarios simply being so unrealistic as to be impossible to happen. For example, one question said "if you could kill 10 people to allow 1000 to live, would you?" When has this ever happened?

 

[Sidhe]

Because they've spent 100's of millions developing a new, better drug? Because there is only anecdotal proof that the old drug is actually effective? Because the old drug hasn't gone through rigorous testing to ensure its completely safe for ocular use and there are no side-effects?

Well the *need* to report a profit is to prevent the comapny going bankrupt. You think sending a company out of business is about saving face? What about the jobs of the employees? What about the investors?

Its a bit hard to develop new drugs when you don't have an income stream.

Oh I'm bored now, let's say I agree and throw morality to the side, another triumph for capatalism without responsibility.

I think the point's are made, you obviously support immorality, I don't, let's agree to disagree, when I'm staring into the face of unreasonable costs at work for the seven millionth time, I'll remember just how great capatalism is and just how wrong I was, and when all those lovely nurses get laid off and good care is threatened, I'll just say, such is the nature of the beast, shrug and thank all that is knowable that I'm still working and who cares that capatalism is preventing good health care, wonderful world we live in isn't it, a dollar has always had more value than good patient care. Happy now.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

Oh I'm bored now, let's say I agree and throw morality to the side, another triumph for capatalism without responsibility.

I think the point's are made, you obviously support immorality, I don't, let's agree to disagree, when I'm staring into the face of unreasonable costs at work for the seven millionth time, I'll remember just how great capatalism is and just how wrong I was, and when all those lovely nurses get laid off and good care is threatened, I'll just say, such is the nature of the beast, shrug and thank all that is knowable that I'm still working and who cares that capatalism is preventing good health care, wonderful world we live in isn't it, a dollar has always had more value than good patient care. Happy now.

I have trouble following your point about nurses being laid off. Nursing is one of the hottests job markets in America right now and they are constantly increasing the incentives with higher wages, bigger sign on bonuses, and better benefits.

Your right this company is so immoral, they should just stop making drugs all together. The people who use there drugs would be so much better off if this evil corporation stopped making their medicine. I'm sure the users of the drug would all unamiously shout in glee knowing an evil corporation is gone, too bad they couldn't read the newspaper or see the tv broadcast, but they'd be happy none the less.

 

[Urederra]

Many people say here that not giving a treatment is no the same as causing the blindness. Then try this game: Morality game

And do you think the doctors give this treatment, or whatever treatment for free? No, they get paid for giving the treatment. So, is in your opinion more acceptable 'morally' to complain about drug prices and not about doctor's estipends?

Is to ask $500 for a drug not morally aceptable but to ask $500 to put it into you eye is morally aceptable?

I don't see your game solving that issue.

And I am sure that the doctors giving either of those treatments get paid more that the $5 they say the portion of Avastin costs.

 

[newfangle]

you obviously support immorality

I'm trying to think of ways you could argue for your case in a worse fashion.

 

[ainwood]

Oh I'm bored now, let's say I agree and throw morality to the side, another triumph for capatalism without responsibility.

I think the point's are made, you obviously support immorality, I don't, let's agree to disagree, when I'm staring into the face of unreasonable costs at work for the seven millionth time, I'll remember just how great capatalism is and just how wrong I was, and when all those lovely nurses get laid off and good care is threatened, I'll just say, such is the nature of the beast, shrug and thank all that is knowable that I'm still working and who cares that capatalism is preventing good health care, wonderful world we live in isn't it, a dollar has always had more value than good patient care. Happy now.

Yeah - I'm completely immoral, because I think that doctors should be paid, nurses should be paid, people who form the supply chain to get food onto peoples' tables should be paid.... Obviously the moral view is that they should do it for love and caring of humanity.

Is it immoral to make money out of treating a disease for blindness, yet moral to make money out of providing food?

 

[luiz]

How is it immoral to make money out of treating a disease? Why is anyone obliged to treat any disease?

 

[betazed]

Oh I'm bored now, let's say I agree and throw morality to the side, another triumph for capatalism without responsibility.

I think the point's are made, you obviously support immorality, I don't, let's agree to disagree, when I'm staring into the face of unreasonable costs at work for the seven millionth time, I'll remember just how great capatalism is and just how wrong I was, and when all those lovely nurses get laid off and good care is threatened, I'll just say, such is the nature of the beast, shrug and thank all that is knowable that I'm still working and who cares that capatalism is preventing good health care, wonderful world we live in isn't it, a dollar has always had more value than good patient care. Happy now.

Lol, Sidhe.

Ok, let us for a moment assume that all of the people here arguing for capitalism are wrong and you are right. Given that can you come up with a system that is better than what we have and also meet the following? (because the current system does meet them)

• Be able to invest speculatively hundreds of millions of dollars in new drugs
• Come up with a few winners in those hundreds of millions and n number of trials
• Still be able to sustain itself indefinitely
• Create wealth for people
• Still treat millions (granted not as many as you want but it is undeniable that drugs do treat millions)
• Yet does not kill too many owing to bad medicine
• In the process advance medical and biological sciences
• Provide some money (you may call it pittance and arguably it is not too much - can be much more) for impoverished people
• and last but not least have the potential to treat not the millions in US and Europe (which is easy) but the billions in India and China (which is hard)

I have a feeling that if you do come up with a workable system it will have all the essential elements of a capitalistic system. Try it out and see how many systems that you come up with meet the above criteria (especially the 3rd and the last).

 

[Mr. Do]

God I hate people sometimes. A drugs company rushes a drug to market, it gets attacked for ignoring safety concerns and risking peoples' lives. It waits for another drug to go through clinical trials, as it is required to do so, and it gets attacked for playing with peoples' lives.

But is this company really risking anyone's lives right now? It's trying to get the other version through to the market at the moment- it could stop and go back and start with Avastin, and take another three years, but it'd get attacked for that too. And then it wants to make a profit on a drug more suited to eye patients, more safer and well-regulated? The evil **********!!!

 

[tomsnowman123]

I was just wondering about your experience. Remember that ideals never work in the real world. Communism in theory should work because everyone has what they need, but in practice it does not. I'm sure when you enter the wokforce you might be surprised by how things actually work, which me to your dismay.

Ideals can work. Many people had different beliefe or ideals that became real.

And I am in the workforce, have been for almost a year.

 

[ummmm........]

Is it not the drive of making a profit that led to discovering this colon cancer drug in the first place?

Thank you.

 

[newfangle]

And I am in the workforce, have been for almost a year.

An entire year?!?!? You definitely have it all figured out, then.

 

[tomsnowman123]

An entire year?!?!? You definitely have it all figured out, then.

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I have worked longer then some posters here I am guessing, based on their age.

 

[newfangle]

I assume you aren't middle management, in any case.

 

[tomsnowman123]

I assume you aren't middle management, in any case.

My parents are very well off (own 8 real estate offices). Not the typical management position, but I hear a lot.

I am the teenager making barely more than minimum wage.

 

[amadeus]

Ah, the teenage socialist firebrand with rich parents. You're what they call a limousine liberal, you feel the pain of the downtrodden and the working class but yet rarely come in contact with them.

Personally, I'd love to come to wherever you live and monitor your economic activity; I've got a hunch that you more or less throw your ideology out the window when you're at the mall.

Moderator Action: Careful - this is crossing the line to trolling.

 

[Akka]

Ah, the teenage socialist firebrand with rich parents.

Because you're a 35-years old with ten years of working experience, perhaps ?