TIL: Today I Learned

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TIL that the 'ok' hand sign is now considered a symbol for white power and will get you terminated at your job. :cry:
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll




I guess I'll stop saying "I'm Okay" before that gets me fired too.
Might flash the sign when explaining what it means.

Really annoyed because I've been using OK for decades!
Thumbs up is just lazy and even someone dying can give one of those.

TIL !
Odd at the same time
That sign is at least 2,500 years old (first mentioned in ancient Greece)
Why would I let some fringe group steal away something belonging to us all ?
Ring gestures, formed by forefinger and thumb with remaining digits extended, appear in Greece at least as early as the fifth century B.C.E., and can be seen on painted vases as an expression of love, with thumb and forefinger mimicking kissing lips. When proffered by one person toward another in Ancient Greece, the gesture was of one professing their love for another, and the sentiment was conveyed more in the touching of fingertips than in the ring that they formed.[1] As an expression of assent and approval, the gesture can be traced back to first century Rome where the rhetorician Quintilian is recorded as having used it.[2] Quintilian's chironomy prescribed variations in context for the gesture's use during specific points of a speech: to open, give warning or praise or accusation, and then to close a declamation.[1]

Contemporaneously the sign appeared throughout the Buddhist and Hindu diasporas as a symbol of inner perfection. Ethologist Desmond Morris posits that the joined thumb-and-forefinger communicates precision in grasping something literally or figuratively, and that the shape formed by their union represents the epitome of perfection—a circle—hence the gesture's transcultural message that things are "exactly right" or "perfect."[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)
 
It's not that gesture itself, it's how someone's using it, and if you look at context things make a lot of sense.

If you say "When I do this, I mean this", and then you do that thing, you're saying you mean that. Those people aren't getting in trouble because they're innocently trying to say "okay" to someone, they're doing something they're associating with demonstrating white power, and that's not acceptable. It doesn't matter how you're saying it, when you're clearly trying to send such an abhorrent message people aren't going to react positively to you. You could turn anything into something negative, and if you're trying to push such a message (especially publicly!) then you should be prepared to face consequences for your actions. You don't just get to say "But this also could mean something innocent!" when that's clearly not what you intended.
 
It's not that gesture itself, it's how someone's using it, and if you look at context things make a lot of sense.

If you say "When I do this, I mean this", and then you do that thing, you're saying you mean that. Those people aren't getting in trouble because they're innocently trying to say "okay" to someone, they're doing something they're associating with demonstrating white power, and that's not acceptable. It doesn't matter how you're saying it, when you're clearly trying to send such an abhorrent message people aren't going to react positively to you. You could turn anything into something negative, and if you're trying to push such a message (especially publicly!) then you should be prepared to face consequences for your actions. You don't just get to say "But this also could mean something innocent!" when that's clearly not what you intended.

That all sounds very reasonable, but if some teen asked me yesterday "hey Kaitzilla, give me a V for victory" and then took my picture, then said "hey Kaitzilla, give me an A-Okay" and then took my picture.
They could post the 2nd picture on Stormfront and I wouldn't even know why my life was over and people were calling me racist today.
 
Why would I let some fringe group steal away something belonging to us all ?
In the Society for Creative Anachronism (non-profit educational organization that seeks to study the history and re-create various activities of the Middle Ages - defined as from 600-1600 AD, with documented proof of contact with Europe during those years), everyone is strongly encouraged to study heraldry and create a unique device (what you'd put on a shield).

There are many dozens of crosses available as charges. But one of them is strictly forbidden: the swastika. Yes, it's historical within the years specified. But due to World War II and Hitler, it's a forbidden charge for anyone creating their own shield device.
 
Unfortunately, crappy (I wanted to use a stronger word for this) people ruin things for the rest of us.
 
It's not that gesture itself, it's how someone's using it, and if you look at context things make a lot of sense.

If you say "When I do this, I mean this", and then you do that thing, you're saying you mean that. Those people aren't getting in trouble because they're innocently trying to say "okay" to someone, they're doing something they're associating with demonstrating white power, and that's not acceptable. It doesn't matter how you're saying it, when you're clearly trying to send such an abhorrent message people aren't going to react positively to you. You could turn anything into something negative, and if you're trying to push such a message (especially publicly!) then you should be prepared to face consequences for your actions. You don't just get to say "But this also could mean something innocent!" when that's clearly not what you intended.
I read each link and not one gives any reason for why we should believe these were displays of "white power."

They did mention the "OK symbol = White Power" connection was a prank invented by internet trolls only in February 2018, that the Anti-Defamation League itself stated that the symbol is not necessarily a white supremacist symbol, and that Zina Bash is of Jewish and Mexican descent and the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, and so is an unlike candidate for white supremacy.

Moreover, forcing someone out of a job is a serious matter. It's usually that person's livelihood. If you're going to take away someone's livelihood, it had better be for a good reason. Connecting an age-old symbol for "okay" to hate speech because the accusers fell for a particularly dumb prank, without proof, and then robbing someone of their livelihood, is just plain wrong. Maybe these accusers should themselves lose their jobs?

If there's more evidence--like if the accused went on a racist tirade, or had a history of discrimination, then that might count for something. But these articles don't show any evidence of anything other than making a sign which, up until February 2018, meant "okay" and nothing else in the US.

There's more than enough real white supremacy and racism without falling for pranks and forming mobs to get people wrongfully fired.
 
In the Society for Creative Anachronism (non-profit educational organization that seeks to study the history and re-create various activities of the Middle Ages - defined as from 600-1600 AD, with documented proof of contact with Europe during those years), everyone is strongly encouraged to study heraldry and create a unique device (what you'd put on a shield).

There are many dozens of crosses available as charges. But one of them is strictly forbidden: the swastika. Yes, it's historical within the years specified. But due to World War II and Hitler, it's a forbidden charge for anyone creating their own shield device.

That's correct.
And considering that strong association to something so horrible:
rightfully so.. at least for now and some time to go.

But I will praise the day that this swastika is freed from that heritage... meaning we got over that abuse.

How about that other cross.. theTemplar cross ?
For westerners mostly just a part of history. Connected to the crusades, some very impressive fortresses, stories of the holy grail, the Cathars, Friday the 13th, perhaps Oak Island.
But for people living in the Middle East as evil as the swastika. And not necessarily for Islam people. Just as well for Turkish people not that religious. For them Iskander (Alexander the Great), the Templars, the Franks (as they call all European crusaders) are thoroughly bad.

So why would Chinese or Asian people have the same disgust as we, westerners, have against the swastika ?
Why should they comply ?
We do not comply to the Middle East disgust on the Templars cross.

And coming to think on those templars.
Just listen to the "March of the Templars"... what connotations does that music give you ?

If you read the comments under that youtube vid it is very clear who picked this music up.

EDIT:
And here the "Chant of the Templars" more ascetic, medieval and deep.
 
But these articles don't show any evidence of anything other than making a sign which, up until February 2018, meant "okay" and nothing else in the US.
For the sake of rigour, I will add that it can also meant "I am an Italian chef posing for the design of a pizza box". I guess there's some overlap between those meanings.

We do not comply to the Middle East disgust on the Templars cross.
Is that a real thing? "The Templar Cross" isn't even a distinctive design, it's just a Greek cross with some little serif flairs on the end. I don't even know if most people wold recognise it; if you Google "Templar cross", most of the results resemble the design of the old German Iron Cross.
 
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That's correct.
And considering that strong association to something so horrible:
rightfully so.. at least for now and some time to go.

But I will praise the day that this swastika is freed from that heritage... meaning we got over that abuse.
I don't think that would go over well in countries that observe Remembrance Day and include World War I even though there are no WWI vets still alive (in Canada, at least). There are still quite a few WWII vets still alive and their experiences have percolated down and had an effect on their families two or three generations along. My own great-grandmother died of Spanish flu after soldiers returning to Alberta spread it among the people.

Lest We Forget.

How about that other cross.. theTemplar cross ?
For westerners mostly just a part of history. Connected to the crusades, some very impressive fortresses, stories of the holy grail, the Cathars, Friday the 13th, perhaps Oak Island.
But for people living in the Middle East as evil as the swastika. And not necessarily for Islam people. Just as well for Turkish people not that religious. For them Iskander (Alexander the Great), the Templars, the Franks (as they call all European crusaders) are thoroughly bad.

So why would Chinese or Asian people have the same disgust as we, westerners, have against the swastika ?
Why should they comply ?
We do not comply to the Middle East disgust on the Templars cross.

And coming to think on those templars.
Just listen to the "March of the Templars"... what connotations does that music give you ?

If you read the comments under that youtube vid it is very clear who picked this music up.

EDIT:
And here the "Chant of the Templars" more ascetic, medieval and deep.
My first reaction to the first video was to be reminded of the Imperial March from Star Wars. It's harsh and heavy and hostile.

And it gave me a idea for the series of stories I'm currently writing.
 
My first reaction to the first video was to be reminded of the Imperial March from Star Wars. It's harsh and heavy and hostile.
And it gave me a idea for the series of stories I'm currently writing.

You're welcome :)


I don't think that would go over well in countries that observe Remembrance Day and include World War I even though there are no WWI vets still alive (in Canada, at least). There are still quite a few WWII vets still alive and their experiences have percolated down and had an effect on their families two or three generations along. My own great-grandmother died of Spanish flu after soldiers returning to Alberta spread it among the people.
Lest We Forget.
.

When I grew up as little kid in Amsterdam it was not that long after WW2. The scars of 5 years occupation still there.
From the first three books that I got as (too little) kid, all from my grandfather, 2 were about the resistance: one on NL, one on the Jewish ghetto uprising in Warsaw. My elder brother the same with two other books. Books were expensive.
My mother was a teenager courier in the war in Groningen. Groningen was liberated by the Canadians. She wanted to emigrate to Canada, but met my father, though she did keep up for decades the correspondence (with the wifes of those soldiers). My father is a much deeper story as member of the Dutch resistance, as most of his family. Not for here.
My mother was also the one the wifes of my uncles from my father's side contacted when one uncle would again not sleep well.
Lest We Forget
Yes, they told enough stories for that, dosed but still a lot. Yes, I was at many Remembrance Day meetings as little kid already. And as adult on top many times in Februari at the monument of the Dokwerker (Heaver) in Amsterdam, as remembrance of the big spontaneous and massive strike when the first deportations of Jews started by the Nazi's.
My mother, now 93, has light dementia. And dementia can cause paranoia-like anxiety. The old fears of her resistance time are coming back when she is in a more weak mood.

I think it is about HOW not to forget.

At Remembrance Day, the usual ritual is some poem from wartime or a survivor victim, a speech by someone more important like the Mayor, and often kids/teenagers involved in adding some poems or text in their kids language. The future is for our kids. No military or vets in uniform except at the official one with the King.
The message here is about the generic abuse and oppression, mostly expanded to the evil of discrimination of all sorts, to the good of of social peace among us all.
Not so much war, not so much Nazi's or Nazi symbols.
The link to the occupation summarised in a line of a resistance member on our main Amsterdam Remembrance monument (not the Amsterdam National monument):
"A people that succumbs to tyrants... will lose more than life and properties... it quenches the light"

Not wanting to succumb to tyrants is not necessarily about foreign tyrants, or only Nazi's.. it is as much domestic tyrants... or multinational tyrants.

No symbols really attached to that remembrance angle. Those symbols change all the time anyway, increasingly faster.
When the last victims and vets have died, and perhaps another generation on top... I think we should free ourselves from the stigma's of those symbols.
 
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You're welcome :)
Thanks (doing this in reverse ;)).

When I grew up as little kid in Amsterdam it was not that long after WW2. The scars of 5 years occupation still there.
From the first three books that I got as (too little) kid, all from my grandfather, 2 were about the resistance: one on NL, one on the Jewish ghetto uprising in Warsaw. My elder brother the same with two other books. Books were expensive.
My mother was a teenager courier in the war in Groningen. Groningen was liberated by the Canadians. She wanted to emigrate to Canada, but met my father, though she did keep up for decades the correspondence (with the wifes of those soldiers). My father is a much deeper story as member of the Dutch resistance, as most of his family. Not for here.
My mother was also the one the wifes of my uncles from my father's side contacted when one uncle would again not sleep well.
Lest We Forget
Yes, they told enough stories for that, dosed but still a lot. Yes, I was at many Remembrance Day meetings as little kid already. And as adult on top many times in Februari at the monument of the Dokwerker (Heaver) in Amsterdam, as remembrance of the big spontaneous and massive strike when the first deportations of Jews started by the Nazi's.
My mother, now 93, has light dementia. And dementia can cause paranoia-like anxiety. The old fears of her resistance time are coming back when she is in a more weak mood.

I think it is about HOW not to forget.
I realize that your perspective of the war is different from mine. I know it from history books and stories from veterans, and the annual Remembrance Day ceremonies (I started observing that day when I was 10; nobody prompted me to do it, and it's always seemed to me to be the right thing to do). Thankfully I didn't lose any family in that war since my dad was too young and my grandfather was too old.

At Remembrance Day, the usual ritual is some poem from wartime or a survivor victim, a speech by someone more important like the Mayor, and often kids/teenagers involved in adding some poems or text in their kids language. The future is for our kids. No military or vets in uniform except at the official one with the King.
I've posted the Remembrance Day ceremonies from Parliament Hill somewhere in OT. I watch it every year (have never gone to the local ceremony). There are many vets in attendance, some in uniform and some not. The Governor-General wears a military uniform for the day (unlike some recent ones, Julie Payette does have an authentic rank as she used to be an astronaut with shuttle and International Space Station experience).
 
The Spanish flu most likely was in the US before Europe, it would have got to Canada any way without troops taking it to Europe and bring it back.
Where the Spanish flu was before the US I do not know. It was called Spanish flu because Spain was not in the report and so reported the new flu.
Thank you for 'splaining my own family history to me. :rolleyes:

There's a recent article on CBC.ca that supports my contention. She didn't die because some American gave it to her.
 
A poikilothermic creature can have as many as ten different enzyme systems in its body in order to survive at a range of core temperatures.
 
TIL: I understood similarities between estonian and finnish languages. I found a web site about basics of estonian language. According to the web site, estonian language is absolutely the easiest foreign language for finnish people to learn. There were quite some examples and I haven't ever thought how much there are similarities between our languages. I understood most of examples even though I haven't ever learned estonian at any level. There was a suggestion to go to a web site of estonian news paper and look for random articles. For me it was a mind blow experience. Then I actually started to think that it's interesting that nobody ever mentiones about this possibility in finnish education path. It's quite "remarkable" actually. How easily people here could increase their "hey, I can talk to foreigners with their native language" base.

Edit: Oh and the motivation for the search was actually this post https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/daily-graphs-and-charts.449588/page-477#post-15288529
 
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TIL: I understood similarities between estonian and finnish languages. I found a web site about basics of estonian language. According to the web site, estonian language is absolutely the easiest foreign language for finnish people to learn. There were quite some examples and I haven't ever thought how much there are similarities between our languages. I understood most of examples even though I haven't ever learned estonian at any level. There was a suggestion to go to a web site of estonian news paper and look for random articles. For me it was a mind blow experience. Then I actually started to think that it's interesting that nobody ever mentiones about this possibility in finnish education path. It's quite "remarkable" actually. How easily people here could increase their "hey, I can talk to foreigners with their native language" base.

Edit: Oh and the motivation for the search was actually this post https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/daily-graphs-and-charts.449588/page-477#post-15288529


Glad I could help. ;)
 
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TIL: I understood similarities between estonian and finnish languages. I found a web site about basics of estonian language. According to the web site, estonian language is absolutely the easiest foreign language for finnish people to learn. There were quite some examples and I haven't ever thought how much there are similarities between our languages. I understood most of examples even though I haven't ever learned estonian at any level. There was a suggestion to go to a web site of estonian news paper and look for random articles. For me it was a mind blow experience. Then I actually started to think that it's interesting that nobody ever mentiones about this possibility in finnish education path. It's quite "remarkable" actually. How easily people here could increase their "hey, I can talk to foreigners with their native language" base.
Yes, it's surprising unless people know some history.
A lot of the Finnish ‘uo’ sounds are ‘oo’ in Finnish, they don't have the exact same grammatical cases, and they've lost that enemy of all foreigners who study Finnish e.g. me, vowel harmony (elävät → elavad, sinä → sina).

More generally for languages, it's easy to learn. Historically, people have often been able to speak more than one language variety out of everyday use and necessity, but education and modern nationalism have seen a lot of language levelling.
 
I informed you that it is probable that the Spanish Flu came from the USA. I did not say anything about your family history or who your great-grandmother caught it off.

From US National Library of Medicine.
I informed you that some Canadian soldiers returned home from Europe. They were in various stages of the disease, and it spread. My great-grandmother was one of the victims, leaving a husband and three young children behind.

I don't give a damn what was going on in the U.S. at that time. My great-grandparents did not ever live anywhere near Kansas.
 
Valka, I think you're making a far bigger issue out of this matter than it deserves.
 
Valka, I think you're making a far bigger issue out of this matter than it deserves.
So my great-grandmother's death doesn't deserve my attention? Given the effect that it had on my family, thanks a lot. :huh:

Granted, it happened over 4 decades before I was born, but it profoundly changed the life of the woman who raised me... who was only 8 years old when it happened.
 
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