[RD] Toronto van attack

[inthesomeday]

It’s about intersectionality tbh

 

[Bugfatty300]

Serious acts of violence, killing and death are things that Americans only ever see in media and fiction. I suppose that can be considered unique, especially compared to the rest of the continent. I'd say that America's cultural fascination with violence and murder is more a result of modern naivete. The few who experience (or commit it) this stuff first hand tend to have different attitudes from everyone else.

 

[inthesomeday]

That’s... markedly false. The biggest act of domestic terrorism in our history was carried out by a veteran.

 

[Kyriakos]

Serious acts of violence, killing and death are things that Americans only ever see in media and fiction. I suppose that can be considered unique, especially compared to the rest of the continent. I'd say that America's cultural fascination with violence and murder is more a result of modern naivete. The few who experience (or commit it) this stuff first hand tend to have different attitudes from everyone else.

While this isn't false, it should be noted that by itself likely doesn't account for the fascination as much, given that there is even less exposure to violence in most other western countries. I mean, if you just mean fascination, it probably is the same, but not if you meant to account for the american public being so willing to allow its governments to be so violent.
I think it is specific country-related. Eg there would be zero possibility for greek popular demand for Greece declaring war or bombing stuff; it could only be accepted if in very obvious defence (ie after another declared war on Greece). Yet with some countries this isn't so. Eg Britain, France, US, not sure about Russia but probably (?) Russia too, and then all sorts of full rogue countries.

 

[God of Kings]

The attack occurred in Canada.

Here, we don't have as much of a fascination for mass killings.

Toronto historically has among the lowest homicide rates of all major North American cities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Toronto

 

[miaasma]

Serious acts of violence, killing and death are things that Americans only ever see in media and fiction. I suppose that can be considered unique, especially compared to the rest of the continent. I'd say that America's cultural fascination with violence and murder is more a result of modern naivete. The few who experience (or commit it) this stuff first hand tend to have different attitudes from everyone else.

i don't think you have to look very far (into the american military) to see that this isn't the case

 

[bhavv]

So I'm breaking my oath of having quit this forum just to post this. Take it however you want, there's little anyone can do do silence this current new anti - incel brigade.

First of all, murderers / pychopaths / lunatics etc exist in this world. This is an absolute fact. What isn't however is that whatever such a person happens to read about, or any such communities they have an interest influence their toxicity in any way shape or form.

We have this constantly demonstrably false knee jerk / strawman reaction that whenever such a crime happens, it's because of something like:

- He played violent video games!
- He listens to rock and roll!
- He's a Muslim!
- She's a feminist! (Maybe not as much, but look at all the extreme feminists online posting to kill all me and infant boys that seems to go completely unnoticed).

Now the new strawman is that here's someone that killed people after posting something about being an incel on Facebook. Wow, such definite 100% provable cause and link of motive because yet another murderer has beliefs / interests / hobbies!

As with any such thing, no group / community / meme culture has any control over who is reading and participating in their culture. Imagine if such a murderer is found to be a fan of Civ, does that mean that playing Civ was their motive for murder? In fact Ive actually had an idiot relative tell me that playing Civ is basically training to become a terrorist.

I've actually been following / reading Incel memes / subreddits etc for some time simply because they are incredibly funny to me. It's actually a step down from dark humour and is surely instead mostly sexist, but there actually is a lot of truth in the fun the 'culture' makes out of dating norms (women prefer to date attractive men, meanwhile both will tend to be polygamous, unfaithful and cheat a lot).

This ofc is joked about in memey ways using the terms like 'chad' and 'stacy'. While some people are going to simply see the funny side and even some truth in the jokes, like with any such thing others are going to be highly offended. In fact we live in a current culture where becoming offended about everything and anything is the norm, like that American girl who wore a traditional Chinese dress to her prom. There is absolutely nothing that people can simply joke and make harmless memes about that the easily offended are going to ignore, and as soon as they have the slightest fuel like this case, they are going to go on an illogical, irrational rampage against the murderer's hobby's / interest memes. This has already happened before with Pepe the Frog memes being linked to far right nonsense.

Another example is when media articles / the easily offended notice that a murderer had mental health issues - 'OMG depression turns people into murderer's!'. No it doesn't, it's simply a coincidence that a murderer also had / was interested in / followed / read about / played / affected by / posted about 'X'.

At most, 'Incels' are simply a completely disorganised group of meme lords / kids / virgins that started making memes out of their anecdotal negative experiences of dating, and it turned out loads of other people could relate to, and I put myself in the group that can relate to and enjoy looking at those memes. There have been countless cases on Reddit where people have gone into incel subreddits just to make fun of them, but actually end up 'converting' because of how much truth the memes also speak about and reflect on that person's, and so many others lives.

If someone actually sees posts / memes about stuff like 'chads, Stacy's, roasties' or whatever they're coming up with and somehow take this as being deadly serious and posing a threat or providing an incentive to murder, they need to get their brains examined as they are clearly far worse off than the people making these memes.

As for people who go onto 'Incel websites' to look for fuel to support that it's somehow an organised movement pushing out murderous psychopaths, you can easily find this about any group of individuals. It just so happens that Incel posts are mainly found on sites like ***** and Reddit with little to no moderation, and the intended humour ends up going into the dark / offensive / politically incorrect nature which is exactly what people like myself crave looking for for a laugh. In general if someone is highly offended by the now ancient joke about women in kitchens, they are going to be easily mentally traumatized by looking into and reading anything about Incels.

It's come to be that we are in a day and age where nothing can be joked about anymore without highly sensitive people going insane, which reminds me of the YouTuber that filmed his pug responding to Nazi commands that was fined for £800 just for being offensive. The next step to this lunacy is going to be rounding up anyone that's still a virgin into death camps, which is the current incel meme of choice.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Welcome back, Bhavv

 

[Lexicus]

So I'm breaking my oath of having quit this forum just to post this.

Well you shouldn't have

 

[Synobun]

snip

This is a nice rant, but seems to conveniently exclude that there was a mass-murderer who broadcast an Incels manifesto before their spree and that the murderer in the Toronto van attack openly advocated for said manifesto before their spree as well.

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh silly goose. They won't death camp virgins, and they won't tolerate reorienting the oversexed culture, fuddyduddies are the worst or something. Most likely the puritans of fornication will move on and forget. If not, it won't be mass murder, it'll be rewriting diagnoses to encompass new disease and hormonal remedy. What's the medical term for socially isolated sexual frustration anyways?

 

[miaasma]

a post

gonna be honest i didn't make it past like. the 4th line of this post

Moderator Action: If you are not going to contribute to the discussion, then don't post, please - also stop the trolling - ori
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I had to read the whole thing, since it's my job. As someone who is getting very very tired of the easily offended, shrieking Violets in our society I can see a little bit of truth in what bhavv is saying. I'm not saying I agree with all of it, but he does make a few good points.

Feel free to call me names as you wish.

 

[miaasma]

i read it all the way through

it was all bad

your name is now harold


Moderator Action: If you are not going to contribute to the discussion, then don't post, please - also stop the trolling - ori
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Lexicus]

I had to read the whole thing, since it's my job. As someone who is getting very very tired of the easily offended, shrieking Violets in our society I can see a little bit of truth in what bhavv is saying. I'm not saying I agree with all of it, but he does make a few good points.

Have you ever...been among incels?

 

[Synobun]

Yeah, I really don't buy the argument that resistance to the Incels philosophy is born of belly-aching snowflakes.

 

[inthesomeday]

*some right winger makes a post somewhere*

Me: oh I wonder how long it’ll take him to mention the dress thing

@bhavv did not disappoint

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Have you ever...been among incels?

Oh, I'm sure I have, at some point. By the sound of things, they're all over the place.

I don't agree with the whole incel thing anyway. What I meant by bhavv making a couple of good points is that society tends to tar everyone with the same brush these days. His example of Civ, for instance. If someone on this forum committed mass murder and it was widely publicized that he was a CFC member, we would suddenly all become psycho loonies in the eyes of the world. This being the age of outrage, it wouldn't matter that the rest of us are good, law abiding citizens with no homicidal tendencies, we would all be guilty along with the mass murderer.

With that in mind, I'm trying not to judge these incels based on the actions of one deranged guy. Not all of them are going to drive a van into a crown of pedestrians. In fact, I doubt that any of the others will. The perpetrator in this case is obviously seriously mentally ill, and that has to be factored into account. TBH, I find the whole incel thing a little creepy, but I'm stopping short from saying that they are all mass murderers.

 

[inthesomeday]

Well anyway who cares? They’re all still disgusting, predatory misogynists, even if they literally don’t have a 100% chance of going on killing sprees.

 

[metatron]

In fact we live in a current culture where becoming offended about everything and anything is the norm, like that American girl who wore a traditional Chinese dress to her prom.

*some right winger makes a post somewhere*

Me: oh I wonder how long it’ll take him to mention the dress thing

@bhavv did not disappoint

Wait let me just quickly google something...
Aha! Of course.

Spoiler :

#didnotdisappoint