Trading posts: the only improvement you ever need to build?

[Cyberian]

Can you guys please explain why maritime city states are an argument for building only trading posts?

You usually don't meet more than 2 maritime city states in the early game.
I was naturally using the tactics described in this Apolyton Article http://apolyton.net/content.php/126-CITY-STATES-who-s-your-buddy

By advancing to medieval Civil Service before turn 60 and having the first important parts of Patronage trees unlocked (start at 20 influence and more influence for gold) it needed ONLY 1000 Gold to have them be my allies.
I had that gold right from early scouting and selling some ressources to the other civs. I needed another 500 gold over the next couple of turns to stabilize the relations.

By directly going for river farms I was going for massive growth in my cities and also building the library national wonder for +50% research after building some settlers/units. By the way settlers are also faster with food and buying them early really not an option.

 

[Ahriman]

Can you guys please explain why maritime city states are an argument for building only trading posts?

Because they provide a food surplus for you without you needing to build/work farms.

Its not the only way to go, but its one way.

I personally tend to prefer civil service + river farms.

 

[Dizzy75]

You can also build farms early, then switch to TPs when you find a decent number of maritimes and have the gold. Although I suppose you need to plan your tech path accordingly.

 

[madscientist]

Trading Posts to me are the CIV V version of CIV IV cottages. You can win with or without them, but the best thing is to work them in.

 

[Ykai]

I really wish they wouldn't look so bad. I totally understand what makes them so powerful, but I am extremely reluctant to build them, because my empire looks that much nicer with farms dotting the serene countryside... I force a few TPs in where I think it won't look as bad, but as soon as a mod comes out that changes the TP graphic to the farm graphic, I'm on board

 

[SirBeegus]

oh boo, I had a lovely response and it didn't load up properly. here goes...again.

no denying that you cannot ignore money in this game since it can do so much. this tactic could be fairly effective, especially if you choose your cultural policies correctly.

But I question if you can produce enough gold to fully take advantage of all the opportunities with gold under this strategy. If you're relying on gold to gold rush build/upgrade troops and buildings AND pay to keep the various city states happy enough to supply you, then you may not have as much free gold to do things like buy tiles or enter research agreements (and in fact, playing against a player relying on TP, I might be tempted to try to enter research agreements and then declare war - yes I lose gold too, but I'm not losing food or troops over it).

In addition, can you gold rush build wonders? if not, how can you acquire all these buildings useful for commerce economies if you have no hammer?

Like another poster on this thread (apologies for not naming), I rather like the forestry upgrades - especially as iroquois with the longhouse bonus.

 

[stoicfaux]

Gold can be used to buy allegiance of city states. By default, 250 gold will buy you approximately 30 influence points, and influence changes at a default rate of -1 per turn.

So if you are allied with a city state, it costs 250 / 30 = 8.33gpt to maintain that alliance. Adopting Patronage will drop this down to 6.25gpt.

Over time, the more times you use to gold to buy influence, the less influence your gold can buy. On a long game, this could be become problematic.

 

[milk steak]

In addition, can you gold rush build wonders? if not, how can you acquire all these buildings useful for commerce economies if you have no hammer?

No, you can't purchase Wonders or Courthouses. TPs in forests/on hills provide hammers to a commerce city. Obviously not as hammer-optimal as a lumbermill, but you get a decent rate of hammers and you can use Golden Ages to pump out important buildings.

Edit- And you can buy any important non-Wonder buildings (Mint, Market, Bank, etc.).

 

[nodule]

You can't discount missions when calculating the cost of keeping a city-state ally. City-states will always give you a mission when you ally them, and about half the time it is easy to fulfill. This really brings down the cost of maintaining several relationships (especially in the late game, for those complaining about influence purchases becoming less effective)

 

[Zhahz]

One solution I thought of before I even played Civ 5 but was predicting the endless TP spam, was that it makes no sense that you can put TPs anywhere and pull gold out of thin air.

If you could only place TPs next to tiles that already produce gold (excepting the capital, maybe), as a gold magnifier (there's something to trade), it would reduce the spam a little but still allow for a decent amount of TPs (along rivers, next to lux, next to coastal fish, etc).

I don't think the makers realized spamming trading posts was a viable tactic perhaps trumping most other tactics.

How could you play Civ 5 at all an NOT realize this?

The AIs use all or most TPs regularly enough, and either by design or accident use the ignore happy strat or at least do the conquer an entire pangea in 50 turns or less and TP the entire landscape strat.

I want cottages and health back. Thanks.

Health? Why, it's just unpleasant micro with no strategic point. Cottages > TPs though, in function and appearance.

Considering how bound Civ 5 is to gold and how costs ramp up more and more insanely with time, I'm really surprised they didn't keep the cottage concept of investing/growing econ tiles.

 

[Thalassicus]

Really this entire game was released without doing much game balancing it appears.

I agree completely. From social policies, to terrain improvements, to leader traits, there's so many imbalances it's silly. It feels like they pulled numbers out of thin air without thorough playtesting.

 

[master_burton]

Maybe you could just stop playing with what is broken and try to win fairly. civ 1 u could have endless movement and a lot more, but u didn't need it to win the game! I didn't even knew about them back then...
So if u think it's broken, try to win without it!Try a little roleplaying once in a while, instead of "let's just trample everybody with cheats!"
Cuz buyin everything just cause it's easier and more efficient (lol is CIV a task now?u want efectiveness or fun?....) is plain lame...like running 0%science in III. Cheap
Thank god they removed cottages and i wish they didn't include TP just to deny ppl their cheap lame wins against dumb AI who doesn't pillage...

 

[dannythefool]

Considering how bound Civ 5 is to gold and how costs ramp up more and more insanely with time, I'm really surprised they didn't keep the cottage concept of investing/growing econ tiles.

I wonder about that too, but I also think that what the game needs isn't more gold but more production. If it wasn't so terribly boring to wait 500 turns for your first few units, then the ability to buy them would be much less important. Also, the AI seems to be better when it's easier to build units...

 

[Dizzy75]

This seems most effective in the mid-game and later, since you need both the gold and pop to pull it off. Also, it depends on meeting maritime states to begin with.

There's no question that it's effective - e.g. just two maritimes means an extra +6 food in each city besides your capital, meaning three farms converted into trading posts, for at least +18g per turn per city. However, it's less than that if you want to use the extra food to grow faster or convert farmers into specialists.

The big thing, though, is that it's capped depending on how many maritimes are available. Since you convert 1.5 citizens from farmers to traders per maritime here (industrial age, at least), the rest of your citizens are "normal," which means they may be more efficient doing something else, which means you won't necessarily be spamming TPs everywhere.

So I don't think it's the only improvement you ever need to build, and I don't think this is broken - just a good idea when the conditions are in place.

 

[Seven05]

TP spam pales in comparison to wanton acts of pillaging. With TP spam you get excited when you have +200 GPT. Give me ten turns and I'll make 5000+ gold off your TP spam

With a little creativity you'll find out how to turn city states into gold farms.

 

[Daniel D]

You can also build farms early, then switch to TPs when you find a decent number of maritimes and have the gold. Although I suppose you need to plan your tech path accordingly.

This has been my early game approach so far as well. I'd rather focus on farms and pump population growth within the limits of available happiness to push research and trade route revenue early on. Gold gifted to city states in the early game is gold that isn't being spent to set up research agreements or help push an early military. You can always start to switch improvements around mid-game as policies and technologies start to change the yield outputs.