UHVs, Abilities, UU, and UB for New Civs

[Leoreth]

The current Italian territorial goal reflects the desired control of the Mediterranean under the fascists. Germany never controlled Russia or England either.

 

[borhap88]

I'd like a 1700 start with Duchy of Savoy in Turin spot, with an indipendent Cagliari that flips to get Kingdom of Sardinia.
A couple of transport, and a Great General (Giuseppe Garibaldi).
Venice will flip too.

1 UHV is Build Palace in Rome by 1860

2 UHV, 65% of Mediterranean Sea is too much. Italy never got such expansion, more correct is to control Libia in 1912 and Italian eastern Africa (ethiopia and somalia) in 1940

I'm open to this alternative start. In this case, Venice shouldn't flip at spawn. Its conquest would likely lead to fight against Austria, main enemy until complete Italian unification, who controlled Venice until 1866.

Talking about UHV 2, I think that is not so unreal. Here Mussolini's project of Italian Empire in 1940.

You may say it was never realized but, for the same reason, UK should be removed from Prussian UHV.

 

[soul-breathing]

Mongol respawn- many of the 8 banners were ethnic mongols. I don't think the Manchu could have consolidated without a fractured Mongolia. I don't think Manchu should spawn if the Mongols still exist.

UHV2
by the 1850s China was already losing its edge. The U.K. + India had a larger GDP in PPP terms (I'm using the Maddison GDP set), and China certainly wasn't the industrial powerhouse that Britain was. Would you rather that we pushed this date further back into the 18th century or kept the UHV as is?

UHV3 My goal here is to keep all UHV goals to the mid-19th century or earlier. I want these not to make the Qing be anti-European. That way it's not more difficult to simulate European imperialism. I also don't want any tech UHVs bc by the 19th century I expect Qing to be very backward. My understanding was that the 18th century Qing was a literary golden age? Do you have any alternative UHV suggestions that would be pre-1842?

Piaohao - they had nothing to do with food production in real life. I don't think we should stretch buildings historical usefulness so far. However, I would like to have it help w population growth. Do you have any ideas on this? I'm open to any and all suggestions here. Was there a uniquely Manchu building that we could use instead?

In general what I'm going for here is to have the Manchu be quite primative and crush the advanced Ming. That will simulate the technological backwardness of China under the Qing which emerged in the 17th century, got worse in the 18th, and was a glaring tech gap by the 19th. Then after they collapse in the late 19th or early 20th century modern China can come back under Mao as an up-to-date modern state.

The current Italian territorial goal reflects the desired control of the Mediterranean under the fascists. Germany never controlled Russia or England either.

What Leo said is just I want to express. Both in DoC and Vanilla RFC, we have many UHVs that the civ never get in history, such as Germany control Russia and England, Russia be the 1st to complete Apollo and Manhattan, and Inca survive at 1700ad, etc. In my imagine, the UHV3 of Qing is to simulate how things will be if the westernization movement succeed in late 19th century, Also Qing Empire indeed had a strong navy in 1890s. As for UHV2, I agree your opinion. As for UB, In 1.13 we make Mancheng(A district for Manchu in Chinese cities in Qing Dynasty) as UB, replace granary(but I prefer to replace market), stores 15% of food after growth. Just for reference.

 

[mccp77]

What Leo said is just I want to express. Both in DoC and Vanilla RFC, we have many UHVs that the civ never get in history, such as Germany control Russia and England, Russia be the 1st to complete Apollo and Manhattan, and Inca survive at 1700ad, etc. In my imagine, the UHV3 of Qing is to simulate how things will be if the westernization movement succeed in late 19th century, Also Qing Empire indeed had a strong navy in 1890s. As for UHV2, I agree your opinion. As for UB, In 1.13 we make Mancheng(A district for Manchu in Chinese cities in Qing Dynasty) as UB, replace granary(but I prefer to replace market), stores 15% of food after growth. Just for reference.

Ok, since I think it'll be impossible for the Qing to be more advanced than the European just bc how stacked the deck will be against them on the tech front. Would the UHV have the highest score in the world in 1900 be a good substitute? If not, what alternatives could we use that don't involve technology?

Mancheng is good. As long as it works.

 

[soul-breathing]

Ok, since I think it'll be impossible for the Qing to be more advanced than the European just bc how stacked the deck will be against them on the tech front. Would the UHV have the highest score in the world in 1900 be a good substitute? If not, what alternatives could we use that don't involve technology?

Mancheng is good. As long as it works.

In fact, when you control China+Xinjiang+Mongolia+Manchuria+Tibet+Vietnam+Korea, you can hardly not be the 1st on score board.. Never lose a city by XX year is too boring. So just now I don't have any good idea about UHV3.

 

[star15389]

No European colonies (including Russian) anywhere in Asia in X date? Also too easy I think
Hard to think of much for the Manchus beyond just conquering the Qing empire in the first place, to be honest, since the period they ruled China is one of relative stagnation and decline

 

[mccp77]

In fact, when you control China+Xinjiang+Mongolia+Manchuria+Tibet+Vietnam+Korea, you can hardly not be the 1st on score board.. Never lose a city by XX year is too boring. So just now I don't have any good idea about UHV3.

What about win wars against 8 different European powers by 1900, lose no cities, and have the highest score in the world? Can that be done? I'm not an expert on actually creating UHVs although I want to learn.

 

[Leoreth]

How about a Manchu civ that dates back further to the Jin dynasty?

 

[Novicenoble]

How about a Manchu civ that dates back further to the Jin dynasty?

Make Khitan civ for ancient era, let them compete with and collapsed by China or Mongolia, then respawn as Manchurian civ.

 

[Novicenoble]

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you are talking about Jin dynasty that lasted from 3rd century to 5th. It seems like you are talking about 12th century's Jin dynasty.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I meant the Jurchen Jin dynasty from the 12th century. Which afaik is distinct from the Khitan Liao dynasty.

 

[borhap88]

Yeah, I meant the Jurchen Jin dynasty from the 12th century.

I think it would be more interesting, giving them a high chance of respawn from 17th century.

 

[Leoreth]

Or even a UHV that expects their survival against the Mongols. I don't know if it is more interesting to take over all of China from that position or a later Nurhaci era start.

 

[mccp77]

Or even a UHV that expects their survival against the Mongols. I don't know if it is more interesting to take over all of China from that position or a later Nurhaci era start.

It's a bad idea. The Jurchens didn't begin to become agricultural and live in cities until the 16th century. They didnt have an alphabet until Nurhaci. If you were to do this then they'd need 2 sets of UHVs bc the Manchus were so different from the Jin dynasty Jurchens. I don't think a civ should spawn until they have settled cities. Hence why the Mongols are the first hordelands civ -- bc they built cities. It's the same reason why we dont include the Gokturks.

Also, from a gameplay perspective the mechanics of making them survive for 600 years before they swamp the Ming seems difficult to impossible to execute.

 

[Novicenoble]

They had limited agriculture (kind of half pastoral and half agrarian) and towns at least after 15c, Ming and Joseon even often launched preemptive raids on them.

Though I think Nurhaci's unification must be the start point of the Manchurian civ. Jin dynasty seems kind of too claustrophobic to be presented on the RFCD.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Civ Name: Normans
Spawn Date: 900AD

Leader: William the Conqueror

UHV 1: The Norman Empire
To control a city in France, England, Italy, North Africa and the Levant by 1150AD.

UHV 2: Doomsday Book
Be the first civilization to discover civil service.

UHV 3: Norman Cathedrals
Representing the Romaneqsue style developed by the Normans. Build 5 cathedrals by 1200AD.

UU: Norman Calvary
Bonus when attacking spearmen.

UB: Norman Keep
Cheaper version of a castle.

Ability: Mercenaries
Reduced maintenance cost for using mercenary civic.

Core Areas: Normandy
Areas of Expansion: France, England, Wales, Italy.

 

[star15389]

What would a Vietnamese civ look like? When would they even spawn? The first state in the area dates from 257BC, sustained independence from 938AD, but lots of short periods of independence between those two dates. Gameplay-wise a later date is probably best, with Hanoi either being an indie city or founded by China. UHV is harder, though. Everything I can think of is either excessively passive or already used for Korea or Thailand

 

[mccp77]

What would a Vietnamese civ look like? When would they even spawn? The first state in the area dates from 257BC, sustained independence from 938AD, but lots of short periods of independence between those two dates. Gameplay-wise a later date is probably best, with Hanoi either being an indie city or founded by China. UHV is harder, though. Everything I can think of is either excessively passive or already used for Korea or Thailand

Hard to say. I think they should spawn in 257BC. If they get conquered by the Chinese and have to respawn then they get conquered by the Chinese. It's historical. Plus, they'll respawn for sure when the Mongols go all banzai on the Chinese.

Here's my vision for them:

Vietnam
Leaders: Thục Phán (Founder), Lê Thánh Tông (Die Viet), Ho Chi Minh (Communist)/Ngo Dinh Diem(Not Communist and Not Dynastic)
UHV1: Spirit of Resistance -- Kill 200 units from civilizations with more cities than you and produce xxx (alot -- they have 2000 years) great generals.
UHV2: Strategic Depth -- Control Central Vietnam, Champa, Laos, Guangxi, Guangdong, Hainan, and Cambodia in 1470AD.
UHV3: Population Density -- Have the largest average city size in 800AD.

UHV1 is very difficult, but I erred on the side of making it more difficult rather than less because the other 2 UHVs struck me as a little easy.

UHV2 isn't historical but it represents Die Viet's general policy direction at the time. It's the ideal shape of Vietnam from a geopolitical perspective.

UHV3 derives from Vietnam having one of the highest population densities of any major state in the world (>600 people/sq mile). I'm not sure what date this started at, but I needed them to have a goal before 1470 if they were going to spawn in 257BC. It will also encourage the human player not to expand much before the Die Viet period in order to maximize average city size. I expect Hue to be quite small and Champa independent cities to be squeezed or conquered by Khmer. The only territory they could conceivably take and achieve this is Guangdong, and that is historically conceivable if you look at the first Vietnamese state.

Ability: Power of Resistance -- Receive a 25% combat bonus when fighting in your own territory.

UB -- Hydraulic System -- provides additional health and food (to help w city size)
UU -- Au Lac Crossbowman

 

[mccp77]

In fact, when you control China+Xinjiang+Mongolia+Manchuria+Tibet+Vietnam+Korea, you can hardly not be the 1st on score board.. Never lose a city by XX year is too boring. So just now I don't have any good idea about UHV3.

So I've found 2 major achievements from the High Qing:

1. 4% annual increase in international trade with a massive positive balance of payments.

2. Cultural explosion: Kangxi Dictionary, Imperial Encyclopedia, Literature (Opera, Dramas, Anthologies, More female and vernacular poetry), Novels (Dream of the Red Chamber and -- less important -- The Scholars and Flowers in the Mirror), the Individualist movement in Chinese painting, Peking Opera.

So I was wondering, in China, which of these is the Qing better known for? We can do a third UHV centered around resource exports or one around culture. Which sounds better to you?

 

[soul-breathing]

So I've found 2 major achievements from the High Qing:

1. 4% annual increase in international trade with a massive positive balance of payments.

2. Cultural explosion: Kangxi Dictionary, Imperial Encyclopedia, Literature (Opera, Dramas, Anthologies, More female and vernacular poetry), Novels (Dream of the Red Chamber and -- less important -- The Scholars and Flowers in the Mirror), the Individualist movement in Chinese painting, Peking Opera.

So I was wondering, in China, which of these is the Qing better known for? We can do a third UHV centered around resource exports or one around culture. Which sounds better to you?

Qing is better known for expansion of territory in China. In Qing Dynasty, China totally controlled Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang, Manchuria(include some part of Russian Far East now) and some part of Burma. The territory of modern China is based on Qing's territory. In fact, in Qing Dynasty China totally controlled Tibet and Taiwan for the first time in the whole history.

Second, the population explosion. Since crops such as potato, corn and sweet potato came to China in Late Ming Dynasty, the population of China turned about 3 times in Qing Dynasty, in 1834ad, the population came to 0.4 billion, about 1/3 of the world.

Third, Emperor Qianlong's Ten Great Campaigns. It's not so different with my 1st point. These are positive parts.

For the negative parts, first, from Late Ming Dynasty, China began to lag behind Europe, in Qing Dynasty, because of the Self-isolation politic, it became worse. During all the Qing Dynasty, China almost didn't get any progress in technology, until the Westernization Movement(about 1860-1895) I mentioned before.

Second, the Culture Regulation. Contrary to what you say, because Manchu is invaders, they were afraid of Native Chinese, they do many measures to do Culture Regulation, in Chinese history we called it literary inquisition(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_Inquisition). In fact, 3 of the Four Great Classical Novels are written in Ming Dynasty, only Dream of the Red Chamber in Qing. The best poems in China were written in Tang and Song, the best novels and dramas in China were written in Yuan and Ming. Qing has nothing good in cultural region, in the meantime many ancient literature were ruined in Qing, because they may unfavorable to Manchu.

Third, humiliating defeat to European, USA and Japan. Because of the backward scientific and technological level, and the slack discipline army, from 1840 to 20th Century, Qing got lost in almost every war and lost too much territory. This makes every Chinese people feeling shame.

So for Qing's 3 UHVs, they should display the territory expansion, population explosion here. The former UHV1&2 in #29 are OK. The UHV3 in my mind can be an alternative history one, so I choose the Westernization Movement.