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UHVs, Abilities, UU, and UB for New Civs

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by mccp77, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    The current Italian territorial goal reflects the desired control of the Mediterranean under the fascists. Germany never controlled Russia or England either.
     
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  2. borhap88

    borhap88 Prince

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    I'm open to this alternative start. In this case, Venice shouldn't flip at spawn. Its conquest would likely lead to fight against Austria, main enemy until complete Italian unification, who controlled Venice until 1866.

    Talking about UHV 2, I think that is not so unreal. Here Mussolini's project of Italian Empire in 1940.

    You may say it was never realized but, for the same reason, UK should be removed from Prussian UHV.
     
  3. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    What Leo said is just I want to express. Both in DoC and Vanilla RFC, we have many UHVs that the civ never get in history, such as Germany control Russia and England, Russia be the 1st to complete Apollo and Manhattan, and Inca survive at 1700ad, etc. In my imagine, the UHV3 of Qing is to simulate how things will be if the westernization movement succeed in late 19th century, Also Qing Empire indeed had a strong navy in 1890s. As for UHV2, I agree your opinion. As for UB, In 1.13 we make Mancheng(A district for Manchu in Chinese cities in Qing Dynasty) as UB, replace granary(but I prefer to replace market), stores 15% of food after growth. Just for reference.
     
  4. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    Ok, since I think it'll be impossible for the Qing to be more advanced than the European just bc how stacked the deck will be against them on the tech front. Would the UHV have the highest score in the world in 1900 be a good substitute? If not, what alternatives could we use that don't involve technology?

    Mancheng is good. As long as it works.
     
  5. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    In fact, when you control China+Xinjiang+Mongolia+Manchuria+Tibet+Vietnam+Korea, you can hardly not be the 1st on score board.. Never lose a city by XX year is too boring. So just now I don't have any good idea about UHV3.
     
  6. star15389

    star15389 Prince

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    No European colonies (including Russian) anywhere in Asia in X date? Also too easy I think
    Hard to think of much for the Manchus beyond just conquering the Qing empire in the first place, to be honest, since the period they ruled China is one of relative stagnation and decline
     
  7. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    What about win wars against 8 different European powers by 1900, lose no cities, and have the highest score in the world? Can that be done? I'm not an expert on actually creating UHVs although I want to learn.
     
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    How about a Manchu civ that dates back further to the Jin dynasty?
     
  9. Novicenoble

    Novicenoble Prince

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    Make Khitan civ for ancient era, let them compete with and collapsed by China or Mongolia, then respawn as Manchurian civ.
     
  10. Novicenoble

    Novicenoble Prince

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    Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you are talking about Jin dynasty that lasted from 3rd century to 5th. It seems like you are talking about 12th century's Jin dynasty.
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Yeah, I meant the Jurchen Jin dynasty from the 12th century. Which afaik is distinct from the Khitan Liao dynasty.
     
  12. borhap88

    borhap88 Prince

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    I think it would be more interesting, giving them a high chance of respawn from 17th century.
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Or even a UHV that expects their survival against the Mongols. I don't know if it is more interesting to take over all of China from that position or a later Nurhaci era start.
     
  14. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    It's a bad idea. The Jurchens didn't begin to become agricultural and live in cities until the 16th century. They didnt have an alphabet until Nurhaci. If you were to do this then they'd need 2 sets of UHVs bc the Manchus were so different from the Jin dynasty Jurchens. I don't think a civ should spawn until they have settled cities. Hence why the Mongols are the first hordelands civ -- bc they built cities. It's the same reason why we dont include the Gokturks.

    Also, from a gameplay perspective the mechanics of making them survive for 600 years before they swamp the Ming seems difficult to impossible to execute.
     
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  15. Novicenoble

    Novicenoble Prince

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    They had limited agriculture (kind of half pastoral and half agrarian) and towns at least after 15c, Ming and Joseon even often launched preemptive raids on them.

    Though I think Nurhaci's unification must be the start point of the Manchurian civ. Jin dynasty seems kind of too claustrophobic to be presented on the RFCD.
     
  16. EdmundIronside

    EdmundIronside White Rabbit Object

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    Civ Name: Normans
    Spawn Date: 900AD

    Leader: William the Conqueror

    UHV 1: The Norman Empire
    To control a city in France, England, Italy, North Africa and the Levant by 1150AD.

    UHV 2: Doomsday Book
    Be the first civilization to discover civil service.

    UHV 3: Norman Cathedrals
    Representing the Romaneqsue style developed by the Normans. Build 5 cathedrals by 1200AD.

    UU: Norman Calvary
    Bonus when attacking spearmen.

    UB: Norman Keep
    Cheaper version of a castle.

    Ability: Mercenaries
    Reduced maintenance cost for using mercenary civic.

    Core Areas: Normandy
    Areas of Expansion: France, England, Wales, Italy.
     
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  17. star15389

    star15389 Prince

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    What would a Vietnamese civ look like? When would they even spawn? The first state in the area dates from 257BC, sustained independence from 938AD, but lots of short periods of independence between those two dates. Gameplay-wise a later date is probably best, with Hanoi either being an indie city or founded by China. UHV is harder, though. Everything I can think of is either excessively passive or already used for Korea or Thailand
     
  18. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    Hard to say. I think they should spawn in 257BC. If they get conquered by the Chinese and have to respawn then they get conquered by the Chinese. It's historical. Plus, they'll respawn for sure when the Mongols go all banzai on the Chinese.

    Here's my vision for them:

    Vietnam
    Leaders: Thục Phán (Founder), Lê Thánh Tông (Die Viet), Ho Chi Minh (Communist)/Ngo Dinh Diem(Not Communist and Not Dynastic)
    UHV1: Spirit of Resistance -- Kill 200 units from civilizations with more cities than you and produce xxx (alot -- they have 2000 years) great generals.
    UHV2: Strategic Depth -- Control Central Vietnam, Champa, Laos, Guangxi, Guangdong, Hainan, and Cambodia in 1470AD.
    UHV3: Population Density -- Have the largest average city size in 800AD.

    UHV1 is very difficult, but I erred on the side of making it more difficult rather than less because the other 2 UHVs struck me as a little easy.

    UHV2 isn't historical but it represents Die Viet's general policy direction at the time. It's the ideal shape of Vietnam from a geopolitical perspective.

    UHV3 derives from Vietnam having one of the highest population densities of any major state in the world (>600 people/sq mile). I'm not sure what date this started at, but I needed them to have a goal before 1470 if they were going to spawn in 257BC. It will also encourage the human player not to expand much before the Die Viet period in order to maximize average city size. I expect Hue to be quite small and Champa independent cities to be squeezed or conquered by Khmer. The only territory they could conceivably take and achieve this is Guangdong, and that is historically conceivable if you look at the first Vietnamese state.

    Ability: Power of Resistance -- Receive a 25% combat bonus when fighting in your own territory.

    UB -- Hydraulic System -- provides additional health and food (to help w city size)
    UU -- Au Lac Crossbowman
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  19. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    So I've found 2 major achievements from the High Qing:

    1. 4% annual increase in international trade with a massive positive balance of payments.

    2. Cultural explosion: Kangxi Dictionary, Imperial Encyclopedia, Literature (Opera, Dramas, Anthologies, More female and vernacular poetry), Novels (Dream of the Red Chamber and -- less important -- The Scholars and Flowers in the Mirror), the Individualist movement in Chinese painting, Peking Opera.

    So I was wondering, in China, which of these is the Qing better known for? We can do a third UHV centered around resource exports or one around culture. Which sounds better to you?
     
  20. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Qing is better known for expansion of territory in China. In Qing Dynasty, China totally controlled Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang, Manchuria(include some part of Russian Far East now) and some part of Burma. The territory of modern China is based on Qing's territory. In fact, in Qing Dynasty China totally controlled Tibet and Taiwan for the first time in the whole history.

    Second, the population explosion. Since crops such as potato, corn and sweet potato came to China in Late Ming Dynasty, the population of China turned about 3 times in Qing Dynasty, in 1834ad, the population came to 0.4 billion, about 1/3 of the world.

    Third, Emperor Qianlong's Ten Great Campaigns. It's not so different with my 1st point. These are positive parts.

    For the negative parts, first, from Late Ming Dynasty, China began to lag behind Europe, in Qing Dynasty, because of the Self-isolation politic, it became worse. During all the Qing Dynasty, China almost didn't get any progress in technology, until the Westernization Movement(about 1860-1895) I mentioned before.

    Second, the Culture Regulation. Contrary to what you say, because Manchu is invaders, they were afraid of Native Chinese, they do many measures to do Culture Regulation, in Chinese history we called it literary inquisition(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_Inquisition). In fact, 3 of the Four Great Classical Novels are written in Ming Dynasty, only Dream of the Red Chamber in Qing. The best poems in China were written in Tang and Song, the best novels and dramas in China were written in Yuan and Ming. Qing has nothing good in cultural region, in the meantime many ancient literature were ruined in Qing, because they may unfavorable to Manchu.

    Third, humiliating defeat to European, USA and Japan. Because of the backward scientific and technological level, and the slack discipline army, from 1840 to 20th Century, Qing got lost in almost every war and lost too much territory. This makes every Chinese people feeling shame.

    So for Qing's 3 UHVs, they should display the territory expansion, population explosion here. The former UHV1&2 in #29 are OK. The UHV3 in my mind can be an alternative history one, so I choose the Westernization Movement.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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