Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by mccp77, Aug 2, 2017.
Why is it that France, Germany, Russia, etc. only get 1 set of UHVs but Italy gets 2?
Well, Germany has already got 2, HRE and Prussia, and I'm pretty sure there has been suggestion about separating Russia into Kievan Rus and Muscovy.
The Library of Ashurbanipal is already included in Leoreth's new wonders list. It has an effect similar to what you suggest as a UP, which is why I suggested something else. Of course, if the Library doesn't end up in the mod (it could totally be removed) then this is a good UP. Extra GPP points (or some other bonus) in the capital when you conquer a city could be an alternative that works well with the deportation theme.
I avoided a technology-related UHV because Babylon already has one. In general I think that two Mesopotamian civilizations should have a different focus, even if they did a lot of the same stuff (build wonders, establish an empire, discover new things, etc.).
Burma (Bamar Peoples)
Spawn 850AD at Pagan (Bagan)
UHV1: Land of Ten Thousand Temples -- Build 8 temples and 8 monasteries by 1200AD (may need to be edited for the new buildings and tech tree)
UHV2: Kill <<very high number here>> Mongol, Chinese, (and Machu if they get included) units without losing a city by 1800AD.
UHV3: Bayinnaung's Conquests -- Control 5 SE Asian cities in 1580AD
Ability: Power of the Ahmudan System -- Burma may conscript units without any technological or ideological prerequisites.
UU: Cassay Horseman
UB: <<insert here>>
UHV2 will need to be changed if Die Viet is also included in order to get some variety. It should probably be changed to something trade related.
Fair enough. I still thing UHV3 should be changed. Maybe make it build ________ units by 650AD?
And that's what using Wikipedia as a source gets me.
LoL. Sorry, I didn't meant to tear into you. Sorry, if it came across that way. I'm always open to suggestions on my thoughts as well.
One thing I'd like to do is learn more about the origins of the Malays. Hopefully, we can create a viable reason to push their spawn date to earlier, so that the Javanese don't blitz them.
You didn't tear into anything, don't worry. When I went to write up that Java thing I knew I'd get things wrong, and had already figured that since I was using info on Wikipedia's Island of Java instead of any one Nation I'd certainly get things wrong.
How do you suppose we could refrect the rivalry between Sundanese and Javanese in game, if it should at all? I'm not exactly sure how the game handles things like that TBH, but from how it soulds it makes me think it had a sizable impact of Java's history, and if so it may warrant being depicted in-game.
Manchu (Mongol respawn)
Spawn Date: 1616
Leaders: Nurhaci, Kangxi
UHV1: All Under Heaven -- Control China, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and Taiwan by 1683AD and Conquer/Vassalize Korea, Outer Mongolia, Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma, and Xinjiang/Eastern Turkmenistan by 1760AD
UHV2: The Malthusian Limit -- Have 30% (may need to be decreased) of the world's population in China and Manchuria by 1850AD.
UHV3: Qing Patronage -- Settle xxx great artists in your cities by 1800AD
Ability: The Power of the Green Standard Army -- There is a 50% chance that defeated units defect to you if your opponent is unstable.
UU: Eight Banners Cavalry
UB: Shanxi Bank (Piaohao) -- Replaces Bank, decreases city maintenance costs by 25%
If anybody can find a good replacement for the piaohao please let me know. There are very few qing or manchu buildings which were exclusively qing or manchu. the manchus specialized in cultural appropriation rather than cultural innovation.
They should also be a Mongol respawn as many of the Eight Banners were Mongol. It's doubtful that without Inner Mongolia and Mongolian horsemen they would have been as formidable as they were.
Australia (I don't like the current Australia civ at all)
Spawn Date: 1900AD
Leader: Robert Menzies
Flip zone: Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, Port Moresby. (Not historically accurate, but it avoids an ahistorical British-Australian or Dutch-Australian war.)
UHV1: Settle and/or Control the whole of Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, and Port Moresby by 1930, and ensure all of Indonesia is controlled by a SE Asian power or independents in 1960AD.
UHV2: Have the highest GDP per capita in the world in 2015AD.
UHV3: Gain 5000 gold through resource exports by 2015AD.
UU: Bushman -- replaces settler -- is 50% cheaper to produce, has +1 movement, and incurs no penalties from moving across desert
UB: Immigration Office -- Replaces the customs house -- allows immigration to a city in which it is built. (The only civ to receive immigration outside of the Americas must work harder to attract it.) Not sure if this can be coded, but it would be ideal.
Ability: Power of the Mining Industry -- each resource mined is doubled. (Example -- I build a mine on a coal resource, I receive 2 coals.)
South Africa (I don't like the current Boers civ at all)
Spawn Date: 1910AD
Leader: Jan Smuts / Nelson Mandela
Flip Zone: South Africa
UHV1: Regional Hegemony -- Allow no European colonies or vassals in Southern Africa or the Congo in 1965AD.
UHV2: Mineral Wealth -- Control xxx mineral resources in 1940AD.
UHV3: Rail Terminus -- Have every city in Southern Africa and the Congo connected to your capital by rail in 1980AD.
UU: Eland Mk7 -- +1 movement, no terrain movement penalties.
UB: Cape Dutch Farm House -- Replaces Granary -- provides extra food
UB and UU were difficult. Would appreciate any input here. Would like the UU to have existed before 1965, so that it can help them w UHV1. For UHV2 the date is also arbitrary. I'd appreciate any input on that as well.
I don't know if we can. I do think an independent Sundanese city should spawn. But beyond that I don't have much. What are your thoughts?
I'm just going to keep working down the list of civs. For the record, I don't expect these to all get included, I'm just outlining the concepts so that people can better evaluate the significance of their inclusion or edit my understanding of what they should be.
Generally speaking this is fit to my imagine about Qing. Some different points here.
UHV1 is good. But UHV2 is a little coincide with UHV1, my suggestion is "make food, commerce and production rank 1st in 1850ad". Your UHV2 is also good.
For UHV3, historically speaking Qing Dynasty is not famous with culture. Since there's a westernization movement in late 19th century, my UHV3 is "be the first to complete all industrial and early global techs, at the same time have a world's strongest navy".
UP is also great. As for the core area, I suggest Manchuria at beginning, then enlarged to north of Yellow River after make Beijing capital. Eight Banner could be cuirassier that unlocked by firearms. I think Piaohao should not decrease maintenance, in fact Qing was out at elbows in the late, maybe stores 15% of food after growth is a good effect, to perform the swift-growth population in Qing Dynasty.
Also I feel it not so suitable to make Qing as Mongol respawn, because they're totally 2 different nations. But since there is Colombia as Maya respawn... Nevermind.
At last, I and some Chinese players had add Manchu into DoC in 1.13 version. Here is link below, can download it for a reference.
Using respawns for new civs has always been a crutch. There will be no need to do something like that when we are at the point where new civs can be added.
Manchu shall not be the respawn of Mongols, as they both need to be presented on the map at same era considering modern history of east Asia.
Mongol respawn- many of the 8 banners were ethnic mongols. I don't think the Manchu could have consolidated without a fractured Mongolia. I don't think Manchu should spawn if the Mongols still exist.
by the 1850s China was already losing its edge. The U.K. + India had a larger GDP in PPP terms (I'm using the Maddison GDP set), and China certainly wasn't the industrial powerhouse that Britain was. Would you rather that we pushed this date further back into the 18th century or kept the UHV as is?
UHV3 My goal here is to keep all UHV goals to the mid-19th century or earlier. I want these not to make the Qing be anti-European. That way it's not more difficult to simulate European imperialism. I also don't want any tech UHVs bc by the 19th century I expect Qing to be very backward. My understanding was that the 18th century Qing was a literary golden age? Do you have any alternative UHV suggestions that would be pre-1842?
Piaohao - they had nothing to do with food production in real life. I don't think we should stretch buildings historical usefulness so far. However, I would like to have it help w population growth. Do you have any ideas on this? I'm open to any and all suggestions here. Was there a uniquely Manchu building that we could use instead?
In general what I'm going for here is to have the Manchu be quite primative and crush the advanced Ming. That will simulate the technological backwardness of China under the Qing which emerged in the 17th century, got worse in the 18th, and was a glaring tech gap by the 19th. Then after they collapse in the late 19th or early 20th century modern China can come back under Mao as an up-to-date modern state.
Dzungar was independent until the early stage of the Qing dynasty, threatening chinese northern border until they completely conquered later. After in 20th century, Russia stretched their influence over Mongolia and Japan extended into Manchuria so they shall be separated.
We can simply make Manchu as conditional spawn civ so it cannot be spawned when Mongol people control the mainland china.
I'd like a 1700 start with Duchy of Savoy in Turin spot, with an indipendent Cagliari that flips to get Kingdom of Sardinia.
A couple of transport, and a Great General (Giuseppe Garibaldi).
Venice will flip too.
1 UHV is Build Palace in Rome by 1860
2 UHV, 65% of Mediterranean Sea is too much. Italy never got such expansion, more correct is to control Libia in 1912 and Italian eastern Africa (ethiopia and somalia) in 1940
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