UHVs, Abilities, UU, and UB for New Civs

[Leoreth]

I like the idea to have two historical goals for the Manchus and one that is a reversal of a historical setback. I think it's appropriate to give them a very bad tech modifier (it needs to be for their research to be slow even with all the territory they control) so a goal that is about catching up to other civs technologically or militarily seems good.

 

[soul-breathing]

I like the idea to have two historical goals for the Manchus and one that is a reversal of a historical setback. I think it's appropriate to give them a very bad tech modifier (it needs to be for their research to be slow even with all the territory they control) so a goal that is about catching up to other civs technologically or militarily seems good.

Yes there could be a bad tech modifier like Mughal, also could give Qing a bad city maintenance modifier. Choose one, or both.

We made a Qing civ in 1.13, the modifier could be a reference.

 

[mccp77]

Qing is better known for expansion of territory in China. In Qing Dynasty, China totally controlled Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang, Manchuria(include some part of Russian Far East now) and some part of Burma. The territory of modern China is based on Qing's territory. In fact, in Qing Dynasty China totally controlled Tibet and Taiwan for the first time in the whole history.

Second, the population explosion. Since crops such as potato, corn and sweet potato came to China in Late Ming Dynasty, the population of China turned about 3 times in Qing Dynasty, in 1834ad, the population came to 0.4 billion, about 1/3 of the world.

Third, Emperor Qianlong's Ten Great Campaigns. It's not so different with my 1st point. These are positive parts.

For the negative parts, first, from Late Ming Dynasty, China began to lag behind Europe, in Qing Dynasty, because of the Self-isolation politic, it became worse. During all the Qing Dynasty, China almost didn't get any progress in technology, until the Westernization Movement(about 1860-1895) I mentioned before.

Second, the Culture Regulation. Contrary to what you say, because Manchu is invaders, they were afraid of Native Chinese, they do many measures to do Culture Regulation, in Chinese history we called it literary inquisition(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_Inquisition). In fact, 3 of the Four Great Classical Novels are written in Ming Dynasty, only Dream of the Red Chamber in Qing. The best poems in China were written in Tang and Song, the best novels and dramas in China were written in Yuan and Ming. Qing has nothing good in cultural region, in the meantime many ancient literature were ruined in Qing, because they may unfavorable to Manchu.

Third, humiliating defeat to European, USA and Japan. Because of the backward scientific and technological level, and the slack discipline army, from 1840 to 20th Century, Qing got lost in almost every war and lost too much territory. This makes every Chinese people feeling shame.

So for Qing's 3 UHVs, they should display the territory expansion, population explosion here. The former UHV1&2 in #29 are OK. The UHV3 in my mind can be an alternative history one, so I choose the Westernization Movement.

Let's make UHV3 that they have to discover key industrial technologies by 1900. It will reflect the self-strengthening movement without being too difficult to achieve.

UHV3: Self-Strengthening Movement: Discover xxx, xxx, and xxx by 1900, have the highest score in the world in 1900, and do not allow any European or Japanese colonies in mainland SE Asia, the Phillippines, Taiwan, the Ryukyus, China proper, Korea, Manchuria, Mongolia, Xinjiang, or Tibet in 1900. (I leave whether Vladivostok should count as part of Manchuria up to others. It was part of China until the mid-19th century, but wasn't very important until the Russians built a city there later.)

Also, I want to change UHV1 to include the requirement that the Manchu have 5 vassals by 1760. That way they are more likely to form a tributary-esk system and not to completely roll over SE Asia, Korea, or Tibet in an ahistoric way.


So to recap:

UHV1: All Under Heaven -- Conquer China, Taiwan, Manchuria, and Inner Mongolia by 1683AD. Then conquer or vassalize all of mainland SE Asia, Korea, Xinjiang, and Tibet by 1760AD and have 5 vassals in 1760AD.

UHV2: The Malthusian Limit -- Have 30% of the world's population in Chinese and Manchurian core cities by 1850AD.

UHV3: Self-Strengthening Movement -- Discover xxx, xxx, and xxx by 1911, have the highest score in the world in 1911, and do not allow any European or Japanese colonies or vassals in mainland East Asia (excluding Siberia), mainland Southeast Asia, the Philippines, Taiwan, or the Ryukyus in 1911AD.

 

[Novicenoble]

Considering Qing would have only the Manchuria (may can be extended to Beijing, though still not the best situation) as the core, expanding the nation to the historical point would be harsh to be managed. It might requires to use tributary states wisely - which reflects the history as well - and I think it is challenging enough to be an UHV.

 

[soul-breathing]

Considering Qing would have only the Manchuria (may can be extended to Beijing, though still not the best situation) as the core, expanding the nation to the historical point would be harsh to be managed. It might requires to use tributary states wisely - which reflects the history as well - and I think it is challenging enough to be an UHV.

The core area could be expand to north of Yellow River(or Huai River) after conquer Beijing(for human player could be after Beijing become capital), Italy and Spain also do like this.

 

[soul-breathing]

Let's make UHV3 that they have to discover key industrial technologies by 1900. It will reflect the self-strengthening movement without being too difficult to achieve.

UHV3: Self-Strengthening Movement: Discover xxx, xxx, and xxx by 1900, have the highest score in the world in 1900, and do not allow any European or Japanese colonies in mainland SE Asia, the Phillippines, Taiwan, the Ryukyus, China proper, Korea, Manchuria, Mongolia, Xinjiang, or Tibet in 1900. (I leave whether Vladivostok should count as part of Manchuria up to others. It was part of China until the mid-19th century, but wasn't very important until the Russians built a city there later.)

Also, I want to change UHV1 to include the requirement that the Manchu have 5 vassals by 1760. That way they are more likely to form a tributary-esk system and not to completely roll over SE Asia, Korea, or Tibet in an ahistoric way.


So to recap:

UHV1: All Under Heaven -- Conquer China, Taiwan, Manchuria, and Inner Mongolia by 1683AD. Then conquer or vassalize all of mainland SE Asia, Korea, Xinjiang, and Tibet by 1760AD and have 5 vassals in 1760AD.

UHV2: The Malthusian Limit -- Have 30% of the world's population in Chinese and Manchurian core cities by 1850AD.

UHV3: Self-Strengthening Movement -- Discover xxx, xxx, and xxx by 1911, have the highest score in the world in 1911, and do not allow any European or Japanese colonies or vassals in mainland East Asia (excluding Siberia), mainland Southeast Asia, the Philippines, Taiwan, or the Ryukyus in 1911AD.

The new UHV3 is good, I like it. 5 vassals may be a little difficult. If there will be Vietnam and Burma into this game, then achievable. 5 vassals: Vietnam Burma Siam Korea and Indonesia or Japan.

But the main question is, in 1700 scnerio, you have only 20 turns to gain 5 vassals. So could it be later? 1800 or 1840?

 

[star15389]

An AI change is in order too, I think. Korea is both very resistant to becoming a vassal and never converts to Confucianism. Both should happen much more often

 

[Edmund Ironside]

My current setup for Sweden. (All of this is already coded on my local version)

Spawn: 1523 at Stockholm

UP: Power of Nobel Prizes, settled GP provide 2 and 1 gold
UB: Riksbank, replaces Bank, provides 25% GP points
UU: Karolin, replaces Musketman, starts with March and Drill I promotions

UHV1: Lion of the North
Control the Baltic Coast, the Kattegat and the Skagerak by 1700 AD

UHV2: Swedish India Company
Control 7 fur resources by 1800 AD

UHV3: Social democracy
Have the highest approval rating in the world for 50 turns by 1970 AD

Core: Sweden and Finland
Historical: Scandinavia, Small area around Philadelphia, Swedish Gold Coast, Some area around the Baltic Sea

Color and Flagdecal:

Spoiler :

View attachment 475214

An alternative Swedish UHV could be based around New Sweden, their attempt to establish new world colony. Could be for them to found and maintain 1 or 2 cities in North America by 1700AD.

 

[star15389]

Founding gigantic cities in the New World can help with spreading Protestantism. I like that as a goal because it includes the historical "found New Sweden" activity without requiring it, as it was after a minor part of Swedish history

 

[mccp77]

The new UHV3 is good, I like it. 5 vassals may be a little difficult. If there will be Vietnam and Burma into this game, then achievable. 5 vassals: Vietnam Burma Siam Korea and Indonesia or Japan.

But the main question is, in 1700 scnerio, you have only 20 turns to gain 5 vassals. So could it be later? 1800 or 1840?

1842? I'm trying to use relevant dates. Does that give them too much time? I want it to be challenging for a human player.

I'd rather default to it being challenging rather than worrying about the 1700 scenario, but I think this will require play-testing.

My idea for 5 was Burma*, Vietnam*, Korea, Tibet, and Thailand. I believe Tibet was a protectorate under the Qing, not directly governed. It seemed both historical and challenging. Until more civs are added, we can decrease the number of vassals accordingly.

 

[mccp77]

Founding gigantic cities in the New World can help with spreading Protestantism. I like that as a goal because it includes the historical "found New Sweden" activity without requiring it, as it was after a minor part of Swedish history

Let's make it about converting other civs. Swedish colonies were mostly just for show. They weren't actually very profitable. Sweden is an inland sea power.

The converting other countries UHV will also further force them into wars with Denmark, HRE, and Russia which is historical. Their addition is mainly as a Russia counter and secondarily Denmark weakener/HRE harasser.

 

[soul-breathing]

1842? I'm trying to use relevant dates. Does that give them too much time? I want it to be challenging for a human player.

I'd rather default to it being challenging rather than worrying about the 1700 scenario, but I think this will require play-testing.

My idea for 5 was Burma*, Vietnam*, Korea, Tibet, and Thailand. I believe Tibet was a protectorate under the Qing, not directly governed. It seemed both historical and challenging. Until more civs are added, we can decrease the number of vassals accordingly.

In Qing Dynasty, the center government of China can control the selection process of Tibetan Lamas(Golden Urn, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Urn). That means, the chief of Tibet is chosen and appointed by Qing government. Also there was Tibetan secretary in Lhasa. So I think Tibet is not Qing's vassal, but belongs to Qing. And in DoC, in 1700 scenerio, Lhasa belongs to China.

 

[mccp77]

In Qing Dynasty, the center government of China can control the selection process of Tibetan Lamas(Golden Urn, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Urn). That means, the chief of Tibet is chosen and appointed by Qing government. Also there was Tibetan secretary in Lhasa. So I think Tibet is not Qing's vassal, but belongs to Qing. And in DoC, in 1700 scenerio, Lhasa belongs to China.

OK, well that's an error in the 1700 scenario. (I've never played from 1700.) I don't believe Tibet was conquered until 1720 although the process of slow encroachment had begun. But you are otherwise right. Maybe 4 vassals?

Otherwise, they'll need to go south in an ahistorical way to grab Indonesia or vassalize Japan neither of which is historical. If we split Indonesia into Malays and Javanese then we can go back to 5 as there were Malay tributaries, but otherwise let's stick to 4 (without civs added, it can be 3 -- Khmers or somebody else, Thailand, and Korea). Essentially, I don't want the Chinese to have to build a navy in the 18th century. I want them focused on building a huge army and building the historical Qing empire.

I want 2 historic UHVs and 1 ahistorical one. That's a good balance.

 

[star15389]

Many Malay states gave tribute to the Ming, as did Japan. The Manchus, as a barbarian dynasty, never mentioned to get quite the same legitimacy. So I think five vassals (Korea, Japan, Thailand, Tibet, Indonesia) is fairly historical. It's something the Qing wanted to achieve but never did. The only problems are that the Confucian religious victory has five friendly civs, which is in practice very similar, and that the Japanese AI is extremely unlikely to capitulate.

 

[mccp77]

Many Malay states gave tribute to the Ming, as did Japan. The Manchus, as a barbarian dynasty, never mentioned to get quite the same legitimacy. So I think five vassals (Korea, Japan, Thailand, Tibet, Indonesia) is fairly historical. It's something the Qing wanted to achieve but never did. The only problems are that the Confucian religious victory has five friendly civs, which is in practice very similar, and that the Japanese AI is extremely unlikely to capitulate.

I want Japan to be able to westernize. As for Indonesia, that's borderline but I'd rather lean towards history. the Qing never had tributaries outside of certain Malay states. What the Ming had is irrelevant in my mind. This is a Manchu civ; I want them to be true to Qing history.

 

[mccp77]

Considering Qing would have only the Manchuria (may can be extended to Beijing, though still not the best situation) as the core, expanding the nation to the historical point would be harsh to be managed. It might requires to use tributary states wisely - which reflects the history as well - and I think it is challenging enough to be an UHV.

Their core could be expanded to include more of Norther China after they conquer Beijing. Also, the population explosion was a proximate cause of decreasing relative GDP per capita in PPP terms in the late 18th and 19th centuries which bred instability. I think requiring the Qing to have large cities outside their core that make them unstable during the 19th century is historically accurate.

 

[soul-breathing]

OK, well that's an error in the 1700 scenario. (I've never played from 1700.) I don't believe Tibet was conquered until 1720 although the process of slow encroachment had begun. But you are otherwise right. Maybe 4 vassals?

Otherwise, they'll need to go south in an ahistorical way to grab Indonesia or vassalize Japan neither of which is historical. If we split Indonesia into Malays and Javanese then we can go back to 5 as there were Malay tributaries, but otherwise let's stick to 4 (without civs added, it can be 3 -- Khmers or somebody else, Thailand, and Korea). Essentially, I don't want the Chinese to have to build a navy in the 18th century. I want them focused on building a huge army and building the historical Qing empire.

I want 2 historic UHVs and 1 ahistorical one. That's a good balance.

4 vassals is good, Siam, Korea, Burma, Vietnam. Without civs added there could only be 2, Khmer can hardly alive after Siam spawns.

 

[Leoreth]

An alternative Swedish UHV could be based around New Sweden, their attempt to establish new world colony. Could be for them to found and maintain 1 or 2 cities in North America by 1700AD.

Founding gigantic cities in the New World can help with spreading Protestantism. I like that as a goal because it includes the historical "found New Sweden" activity without requiring it, as it was after a minor part of Swedish history

That's why I liked the Fur goal to be honest, it encouraged either conflict with Russia or new world colonies.

 

[rmontaruli]

Talking about UHV 2, I think that is not so unreal. Here Mussolini's project of Italian Empire in 1940.

Agree.
If UHV is that project, it is not 65% of mediterranean coasts.
In a game of mine i had to conquest Jerusalem, Algiers and Constantinopolis to achive it.

 

[mccp77]

That's why I liked the Fur goal to be honest, it encouraged either conflict with Russia or new world colonies.

Sweden had New World colonies in the same way that Austria-Hungary had a concession in China. Yeah, it was there, but it didn't do much for them or matter much to anybody else.