UK High Court finally acts to block unsupervised use puberty blockers on children

[Crezth]

To be perfectly clear: I've witnesses people being pressuring into "assuming themselves as trans" who were very clearly merely homossexual. It was bad enough when a "gay lifestyle" was pushed on young and impressionable people for the sake of their commercial exploitation more than anything else: the associations have always been sponsored by the night clubs, bars, etc.. but what the hell that was life and young people had to meet it at that point in life anyway. Everything is commercialized, so what if this group is specifically exploited I guess? One among others. Some became casualties to drugs, debts, suicide or AIDS that wouldn't if they hadn't been pushed head first into "affirmation" in an environment that can be rather toxic, but it was the subculture we had. Most survived. I could deal with that and still help people.

Then came the transgender fashion... what was a very specific medial problem affecting a small number of people now became a fad pushed by associations and "charities", some of witch were the old gay associations whose purpose after the last big battles (marriage and adoption) had become void. They were seriously in risk of being disbanded, having no more donations and volunteers. Law of institutions: the people living off them won't disband because the work is done, they'll find some other cause if they can. When leaders live off the association's funds... very common anywhere. Again, I've lived this...

This new fashion was salvation: it should be applicable to anyone who could be persuaded that therein lie the solution to their feelings or maladjustment - the more the people the greater the influence and the new funding. Feelings that are entirely normal to be felt by teenagers are being exploited - this is no different than the way religion exploits sex to create guilt and the need to atone for it ritually. So now gender is supposed to be a "choice" and on that choice people should act immediately when they feel maladjusted, when they are at their most vulnerable, children and teenagers, and if necessary isolated from their usual support groups other than that provided by these associations and allies: the procedures should be done in secrecy on the idea that the child or teenager alone can "consent". Obviously advised by the helpful association/trust/medical staff... This was the idea, that this curt order put a stake through at least in the UK.

This was not righting some wrong. This was not saving people from oppression. This, the way it was (is) being done, was another exploitation. Checks and balances on the advice institutionally given, a delay to consider maturely, can only be a good thing.

The completely weird and bonkers way you approach this entire topic make it crystal clear you are completely unacquainted with any feminist or women's or queer liberation literature or theory whatsoever. There's no cure for it except for you to open a book. Like you're talking about how queer liberation is a marketing gimmick and that's why you couldn't support it. You barely mention the actual struggles except to say they necessitated only a brief moment of solidarity. Presumably it was only necessary insofar as it did not invade the pristine public space of your imagination. What do you think the enormous advertising culture reinforcing traditional masculinity and femininity is? Capitalism bowing before nature? Like certain aspects of capitalist cultural normativity are fine, but the moment some trans people start asking for healthcare, mental and physical, you and the last platoon of the Red Wall are battling some insidious plot of the Rothschilds.

This is your brain on white male Marxist First Worldism, ladies and gentlemen and nonbinary people "Innonimatu's Enemies of the Working Class."

 

[Ajidica]

The completely weird and bonkers way you approach this entire topic make it crystal clear you are completely unacquainted with any feminist or women's or queer liberation literature or theory whatsoever.

Heck, one doesn't need to read any feminist or queer liberation literature to have a different opinion.
God knows I've never intentionally read any of that.

 

[Crezth]

Heck, one doesn't need to read any feminist or queer liberation literature to have a different opinion.
God knows I've never intentionally read any of that.

Maybe you've spoken to at least one woman in your life and considered her opinion fairly and honestly? I mean I don't know what the problem is either.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I for one am glad that @innonimatu is casually announcing his transphobia for all to see.

Presumably when he made the informed decision to be cis he did so with the understanding that being such has been the "popular" lifestyle/fad for say, the entirety of human history.

Which makes his comments on it pretty odd and leads me to believe he may be cribbing more from anti lgbt groups then hde might be comfortable in admitting.

 

[Broken_Erika]

So, how long until this thread turns into a raging dumpster fire?

 

[NinjaCow64]

Beats me what's right but generally support the parents. It's their job basically.

Considering the very high rates of abuse and/or abandonment of LGBT children, you ought to reconsider this.

 

[Angst]

when it was hard.

It's still hard. Very. And this court order is at best ambiguous in utility. People usually know quite young that they're trans, and blocking kids from having access to medication that severely cuts down on dysphoria later in life is not a good thing; but they are, yes, young and not legally able to make similar decisions in other aspects of their life, and often for good reasons.

I have a personal stake in this. I am choosing not to transition due to my body being too masculine at this point, but if I was properly enlightened about my options and it hadn't been stigmatized when I was a kid, I would have transitioned; now I have to live with hating how I look on a very fundamental level, regardless of how good I might look as a male.

Calling it fashion is ridiculous.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

So, how long until this thread turns into a raging dumpster fire?

The moment the op clicked "create thread".

But let's not kid ourselves here, he clearly dislikes transpeople, which is obvious from his desire and support of a ruling that forces young British transpeople to undergo a humiliating and painfull puberty.

Functionally hes no different from a transphobe.

No amount of appealing to basic humanity or pointing out the issues dysphoria can cause will matter. The cruelty is the point.

 

[Zardnaar]

Considering the very high rates of abuse and/or abandonment of LGBT children, you ought to reconsider this.

That's what social services are for.

It's become very hard here for said social services to remove kids from their parents, it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

That's what social services are for.

It's become very hard here for said social services to remove kids from their parents, it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

You don't get it and frankly you never will.

 

[JohannaK]

I have a personal stake in this. I am choosing not to transition due to my body being too masculine at this point, but if I was properly enlightened about my options and it hadn't been stigmatized when I was a kid, I would have transitioned; now I have to live with hating how I look on a very fundamental level, regardless of how good I might look as a male.

So did I for years, it's never too late. You might or might not get there but I hope you do.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I wonder, with such a tone, why would you think that people in the Ask a Trans Person thread might be hostile to you. It is clear you have absolutely no compassion for transgender people, not unlike the same way reactionaries lacked such when gay people were dying in droves from AIDS while the governments did nothing, as it was just the "gay plague". I don't know if you're straight or not - doesn't f-n matter, honestly - but I scorn your "concern" for the way spaces have been commodified by capitalism. This, my friend, isn't the fault of trans people, and to blame them is like blaming the workers for making profits for the capitalists, i.e, complete nonsense. Shut the hell up and talk to some trans people, and I pray to God you will learn some empathy.

 

[Zardnaar]

You don't get it and frankly you never will.

So try and explain it here then.

Are you saying the state should intervene here, or the state should provide puberty blockers.

From 16 or so you can get the independent youth benefit here or used to be able to if you can't live at home for whatever reason

Ultimately the parents get to make the call at the end of the day.

 

[red_elk]

Court decision should not be required if blockers are prescribed to treat medical condition, like premature puberty and so on.
Using them for sex change is more complicated though. IMO the decision of such major irreversible body change should be made by adults only, at least 20 years old.

 

[Zardnaar]

Court decision should not be required if blockers are prescribed to treat medical condition, like premature puberty and so on.
Using them for sex change is more complicated though. IMO the decision of such major irreversible body change should be made by adults only, at least 20 years old.

I think in UK adult age legally is 18.

 

[Gorbles]

In fairness, it has been repeatedly noted that is an 'Ask a.." thread and not a discussion thread.

Absolutely!

inno could've done with asking the most basic types of question on the subject, or even reading the answers therein, before creating this thread. He didn't.

He could've even tried to source medical fact to back up his theories and claims, but he didn't.

And now we see the tired pivot to "but people are labeling me", for a predictable three out of three.

Don't get me wrong, nothing against your arguments or how you're making them. I'm just choosing a different approach. Although I'm cis, I do my best to keep myself incredibly informed on stuff like this in the UK in particular, and the nonsense he's peddling is galling. My only regret is I'm on mobile so I can't dump links at will. We'll see if this is still going on Monday

As entirely predictable the standard invocation of the word "transphobic" to suppress discussion was made. You may disagree on a matter of opinion, it is a matter of opinion whether the sudden and unprecedented rise on the number of these cases (a fact) is an indication that it is fad or not. I know what I saw, personally here where I live too. Time will tell and I'm content (or rather, resigned, because I do have an opinion) to wait and see.

No, the word "transphobic" is used because its an accurate label. It evidently hasn't stopped you from posting, so please leave the boring old refrain of "i said something offensive online and now people are mad at me, maybe they're the real offensive ones". It's reactionary, shallow behaviour.

But sure, let's discuss this rise in cases. What level of medical knowledge do you possess of these cases? How many of them actually pertain to minors? Why does a sudden rise in cases indicate it could be a "fad"? Is Covid-19 a fad? By your logic and complete lack of supporting evidence, the cases "indicate" it could be so.

 

[Crezth]

Court decision should not be required if blockers are prescribed to treat medical condition, like premature puberty and so on.
Using them for sex change is more complicated though. IMO the decision of such major irreversible body change should be made by adults only, at least 20 years old.

Not making a decision is also a decision in the context of puberty. That's the entire point.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Are you saying the state should intervene here, or the state should provide puberty blockers.

The state (or more accurately the courts) shouldn’t interfere in a matter that should settled by medical professionals.

Ultimately the parents get to make the call at the end of the day.

Parents don’t always have LGBT children’s best interests at heart.

Court decision should not be required if blockers are prescribed to treat medical condition, like premature puberty and so on.
Using them for sex change is more complicated though. IMO the decision of such major irreversible body change should be made by adults only, at least 20 years old.

Puberty blockers are reversible. They delay puberty, nothing more. HRT is not legally available in most countries until people are least 18 years old and have jumped through many medical and bureaucratic hoops.

 

[innonimatu]

It's still hard. Very. And this court order is at best ambiguous in utility. People usually know quite young that they're trans, and blocking kids from having access to medication that severely cuts down on dysphoria later in life is not a good thing; but they are, yes, young and not legally able to make similar decisions in other aspects of their life, and often for good reasons.

I have a personal stake in this. I am choosing not to transition due to my body being too masculine at this point, but if I was properly enlightened about my options and it hadn't been stigmatized when I was a kid, I would have transitioned; now I have to live with hating how I look on a very fundamental level, regardless of how good I might look as a male.

Calling it fashion is ridiculous.

This ruling will (hopefully, it's a matter of implementation) not prevent transitioning, it will only make sure that there is more oversight of the process.

That there is a medical fashion around it now is imho plain to see by the numbers. You can argue that it is a plateau, something that had been hided before, and only time will indeed tell. I still favour caution and see it as a fashion grown out of a real problem that does affect many people, but now also being pushed on others whose problems are different. The trouble here is evaluating the cases, which are really going to be carried and which are temporary. The danger, which some here in this and past discussions refuse to even consider, is not just to those people who decided hastily in error, it's also the general backlash from that. If my suspicion that this is currently an exaggerated medical diagnosis and cultural phenomenon fashion turns out to be correct.

@Ajidica I finally read that piece from The Atlantic. It's more in depth that I expected, the author did some research and talked to people. Enough to show how complicated the problem is. I still don't understand how nevertheless the article can contain this phrase:

As your child approaches adolescence, get them puberty-blocking drugs, because developing the secondary sex characteristics of their assigned sex could exacerbate their gender dysphoria.

And also say this:

Meanwhile, fundamental questions about gender dysphoria remain unanswered. Researchers still don’t know what causes it—gender identity is generally viewed as a complicated weave of biological, psychological, and sociocultural factors. In some cases, gender dysphoria may interact with mental-health conditions such as depression and anxiety, but there’s little agreement about how or why. Trauma, particularly sexual trauma, can contribute to or exacerbate dysphoria in some patients, but again, no one yet knows exactly why.

Some of these interventions are irreversible. People respond differently to cross-sex hormones, but changes in vocal pitch, body hair, and other physical characteristics, such as the development of breast tissue, can become permanent. Kids who go on puberty blockers and then on cross-sex hormones may not be able to have biological children. Surgical interventions can sometimes be reversed with further surgeries, but often with disappointing results.

It's a circle that can be squared only by demonstrating with a good degree of certainly that the child does require a sex change. Historically these have been done mostly on children who were born somehow intersex and indeed assigned a sex at birth, often the wrong one, that is the reason why the statistics on people who regretted operations were so low by 2018. As it became more common, way past those cases... first you had pieces like that 2018 one in The Atlantic, drawing attention to the difficulties with this issue. Now you have court wins in attempts to put more checks on this process. And, this is what I've been fearing more generally, the religious right won't be all measured and civil like the Atlantic in picking up these problems, the fallout from this will be severe. As these cases grow in number - and they will, as interventions also did and there's a time lag - they will be ample ammunition to a general cultural backlash. Most young people haven't lived through one, though people in the US who recall the 80s did. Then the weak will be trampled, as always.

 

[Zardnaar]

The state (or more accurately the courts) shouldn’t interfere in a matter that should settled by medical professionals.



Parents don’t always have LGBT children’s best interests at heart.



Puberty blockers are reversible. They delay puberty, nothing more. HRT is not legally available in most countries until people are least 18 years old and have jumped through many medical and bureaucratic hoops.

So what do you do then?

Shouldn't LGBTQ kids be allowed to divorce their parents? Who looks after them? Who pays for it?

Here it actually contravenes the bill of rights act.