Ultimate Wishlist for potential Civ6 leaders

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If it happens I'm going to blame you for encouraging Firaxis in their worst ideas

Wouldn't be their worst idea in the world.
Her daughter leading France would be worse.

As for Maria Teresa...I think Austria is a boring civ that predominantly only exists for her sake (and Mozart, I guess, but I don't like any classical music made before 1850). I agree with everyone that Maria leading Hungary or Germany is weird and certainly doesn't work under the VI design paradigm.

Which is why I propose Maria Teresa should be able to lead both Germany and Hungary. And France. And Italy, if we get it. And Spain. And England. And Kongo. And Indonesia. And Mapuche. Let her lead everything, I say.

I'm pretty sure she didn't have that many kids to go around and try to expand her dominion.

 

[Guandao]

Thank you, Basileus, for being another voice of reason among the civ fans. Byzantium is mechanically and historically better represented as an extension and continuation of Rome, not it's own thing. Much of its identity and ideals are basically the Roman uniques, just with a slight religious bent. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel when I think merging the two civs would strengthen both of them.

Did you actually read what Basileus wrote?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Did you actually read what Basileus wrote?

I was being facetious. I don't see how someone can reasonably claim that Byzantium should be culturally tied to Rome, but also a separate civ, at least under VI's design philosophy.

Magna Mater literally refers to an Anatolian ideal, conceptually unifying Western and Eastern Rome, so it could just as easily apply to early Byzantium under Theodora and Constantine. As do all the uniques. This fantasy that Byzantium NEEDS to be different from Rome is silly when Theodora is by far the frontrunner leader choice and therefore all later Byzantine traits don't really apply to her. Not to mention all these claims of awesome Byzantine music and structures lose a lot of traction in the context of Russia, Poland, and Georgia.

It's just not a strong concept, guys. Byzantium was fine when all the art assets were tiny and samey in prior games that only cared about size and longevity instead of culture. But here there are strong indications that the devs will specifically represent early Byzantium, i.e. Rome, with an alt leader. You are welcome to ignore the signs, but you can't obviate them.

 

[Guandao]

I was being facetious. I don't see how someone can reasonably claim that Byzantium should be culturally tied to Rome, but also a separate civ, at least under VI's design philosophy.

Magna Mater literally refers to an Anatolian ideal, conceptually unifying Western and Eastern Rome, so it could just as easily apply to early Byzantium under Theodora and Constantine. As do all the uniques. This fantasy that Byzantium NEEDS to be different from Rome is silly when Theodora is by far the frontrunner leader choice and therefore all later Byzantine traits don't really apply to her. Not to mention all these claims of awesome Byzantine music and structures lose a lot of traction in the context of Russia, Poland, and Georgia.

It's just not a strong concept, guys. Byzantium was fine when all the art assets were tiny and samey in prior games that only cared about size and longevity instead of culture. But here there are strong indications that the devs will specifically represent early Byzantium, i.e. Rome, with an alt leader. You are welcome to ignore the signs, but you can't obviate them.

Ok, Ed Beach, enough trolling!

Looking at some of your leader choices, I'm glad you're not on the Firaxis design team, or are you?

 

[Basileus Rhomaion]

Magna Mater literally refers to an Anatolian ideal, conceptually unifying Western and Eastern Rome, so it could just as easily apply to early Byzantium under Theodora and Constantine.

Magna Mater is a Latin honorific title for Hekate which is by all means a Hellenistic goddess, that is to say indigenous to the Near East but infused with Greek cultural elements. Also, the actual musical piece Magna Mater is an original composition by a modern musical group (Synaulia). It's not really outlining how Anatolia influenced Rome.

when Theodora is by far the frontrunner leader choice

Says who?

Not to mention all these claims of awesome Byzantine music and structures lose a lot of traction in the context of Russia, Poland, and Georgia.

If you are implying that these 3 have anything in common musically or bureaucratically with the Byzantines, then you are very much mistaken.

But here there are strong indications that the devs will specifically represent early Byzantium, i.e. Rome, with an alt leader. You are welcome to ignore the signs, but you can't obviate them.

You mean like not having any major Byzantine urban centers as part of the Roman civ city list?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Says who?

Isn't it obvious. She's a woman.
That being said she's not my first pick whatsoever.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Magna Mater is a Latin honorific title for Hekate which is by all means a Hellenistic goddess, that is to say indigenous to the Near East but infused with Greek cultural elements. Also, the actual musical piece Magna Mater is an original composition by a modern musical group (Synaulia). It's not really outlining how Anatolia influenced Rome.

And you're not really outlining why it isn't. The fact is it still represents the bridging between the two responds, regardless of how it was appropriated by the Romans.

Says who?

Says Firaxis, repeatedly, that women rulers are being actively sought. Dido, DIDO made it in.

If you are implying that these 3 have anything in common musically or bureaucratically with the Byzantines, then you are very much mistaken.

Jeez it's painful to spell these things out for people so willing to equivocate. An Eastern European civ focusing on religion is not unique juxtaposed against Poland, Russia, and Georgia. With respect to unique buildings, nothing Byzantium could build stands well against the Lavra. And with respect to music, nothing Byzantium could use stands well against Georgia's music. The civ is conceptually trumped or at least impinged on nearly all fronts... The only thing that truly sets it apart from its neighbors now is its connection to Rome, which the devs will capitalize on.

You mean like not having any major Byzantine urban centers as part of the Roman civ city list?

Oh no, you poked a single hole in my hull! Let me quickly repair that with a few lines of code.

 

[Lord Lakely]

If they're going with only 3 female leaders per Xpac, with all the female options available to other civs as well, it's perfectly possible the devs could give Byzantium a male leader if they're ever included. (which they should be, imo )

That said, Theodora IS a high-profile name and *that* is why she's the frontrunner for a Byzantine leader imo.

ALSO Yes, Dido made it, but she was also in Civ 5 *and* this time she allegedly leads Phoenicia, a civ whose leaders we know very little about.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

If they're going with only 3 female leaders per Xpac, with all the female options available to other civs as well, it's perfectly possible the devs could give Byzantium a male leader if they're ever included. (which they should be, imo )

That said, Theodora IS a high-profile name and *that* is why she's the frontrunner for a Byzantine leader imo.

ALSO Yes, Dido made it, but she was also in Civ 5 *and* this time she allegedly leads Phoenicia, a civ whose leaders we know very little about.

At the time Theodora led Byzantium, it was called...wait for it...Rome. If Dido can be reassigned to Phoenicia, Theodora should be reassigned to Rome.

 

[Guandao]

At the time Theodora led Byzantium, it was called...wait for it...Rome. If Dido can be reassigned to Phoenicia, Theodora should be reassigned to Rome.

It makes no sense for Rome to have a female alt leader. Would Theodora speak Greek or Latin? What about the later Byzantine Empresses? We don't need a repeat of a sexualized Theodora.

By the way, her name's spelled Anacaona, not Aracoana.

 

[Kimiimaro]

At the time Theodora led Byzantium, it was called...wait for it...Rome. If Dido can be reassigned to Phoenicia, Theodora should be reassigned to Rome.

Mehmed II, after his conquest of Constantinople, proclaimed himself Kayser-i Rum, or Emperor/Caesar of Rome, if you want. His Empire more or less occupied former lands of the Byzantine, or if you want, Eastern Roman Empire. Does that mean Mehmed II should lead Romans?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Mehmed II, after his conquest of Constantinople, proclaimed himself Kayser-i Rum, or Emperor of Rome, if you want. His Empire more or less occupied former lands of the Byzantine, or if you want, Eastern Roman Empire. Does that mean Mehmed II should lead Romans?

You'll have to try harder than that. France and England both acknowledge their Angevin heritage. The modern Indian state self-identifies with the Mauryan empire. Modern Greece touts both Athens and Sparta as shaping it's heritage. There is a cultural throughline uniting these civs, and indeed Rome and Byzantium, that doesn't exist for Mehmed. Byzantines didn't identify as Ottomans (obviously); they were a direct offshoot of Rome and that ended with the conquest by the Ottomans. This is not the same.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

It makes no sense for Rome to have a female alt leader. Would Theodora speak Greek or Latin? What about the later Byzantine Empresses? We don't need a repeat of a sexualized Theodora.

By the way, her name's spelled Anacaona, not Aracoana.

Probably both. Look at Catherine. And do the later Empresses have the same resonance as Theodora? Probably not.

 

[Guandao]

Probably both. Look at Catherine. And do the later Empresses have the same resonance as Theodora? Probably not.

They better not depict her that way (Civ5) again, then. It was disrespectful.

You changed the spelling to Anaoana, it's Anacaona.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Why to use Theodora again, when we could have some new accomplished Emperor, like Alexios I Komnenos, Manuel I Komnenos or Basil II Bulgaroktonos, for example? To use one leader for an Empire that lasted for a millenium for two games in a row feels like a waste of opportunity. Same goes for China, one of the oldest civilisations in the world, with many interesting Emperors coming from unrepresented dynasties. Yongle of Ming, Kangxi of Qing, and others. Yet, China only had Wu Zetian, Mao Zedong and Qin Shi Huang so far through six games.

 

[Lord Lakely]

You can't draw the comparison to Catherine de Medici. Catherine de Medici was ITALIAN, but ruled a kingdom that spoke FRENCH. Theodora is of Cypriot GREEK descent and ruled a (koine) GREEK-speaking empire.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

They better not depict her that way (Civ5) again, then. It was disrespectful.

You changed the spelling to Anaoana, it's Anacaona.

Disrespectful to whom? They're all dead.

 

[Guandao]

Disrespectful to whom? They're all dead.

To women in general.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

To women in general.

Oh no, then I guess Cleopatra needs to be retconned with some acne and water weight. And Gilgamesh, Chandragupta, and Shaka Khan should put some clothes on.

VI seems to be sexually more liberal than prior games, so I don't see this as a strong argument.

 

[Guandao]

Oh no, then I guess Cleopatra needs to be retconned with some acne and water weight. And Gilgamesh, Chandragupta, and Shaka Khan should put some clothes on.

VI seems to be sexually more liberal than prior games, so I don't see this as a strong argument.

So you expect Theodora to dress like Cleo, then?

Something like this would be better.