Ultimate Wishlist for potential Civ6 leaders

[Basileus Rhomaion]

And you're not really outlining why it isn't. The fact is it still represents the bridging between the two responds, regardless of how it was appropriated by the Romans.

Because that's not what Anatolian culture is. If you really want to see how Anatolia shaped the culture of Rome, look no further than Byzantine music and early Christianity. Christianity was cultivated and matured in Anatolia first.

Says Firaxis, repeatedly, that women rulers are being actively sought. Dido, DIDO made it in.

That doesn't really prove a connection, frankly. Kösem Sultan would also be a very strong female candidate to be added with the Ottomans coming, but Suleiman was chosen instead. And even if this was in any way a strong indication, there's no reason not to go for Zoe, Irene or the other Theodora instead.

An Eastern European civ focusing on religion is not unique juxtaposed against Poland, Russia, and Georgia.

a) The Byzantine empire isn't solely eastern Europen. That's like calling the Ottoman empire eastern European, it's a complete misnomer despite its superficial pertinence.
b) I literally wrote an entire post about how Byzantium never was religiously focused and thus Civ should redirect the civ's focus away from it in Civ 6. This would make its niche completely different to any of the 3 you mentioned.

With respect to unique buildings, nothing Byzantium could build stands well against the Lavra.

Why would you give Byzantium a unique religious building at all?

And with respect to music, nothing Byzantium could use stands well against Georgia's music.

I don't think you have enough erudition in Byzantine music to claim that.

Oh no, you poked a single hole in my hull! Let me quickly repair that with a few lines of code.

The point is not whether this can be easily changed (it can), it's the fact it directly contradicts your point. You claim there are strong indications that the Rome-Byzantium merge will happen in Civ 6, and yet one of the strongest possible sources for such an indication (the actual cities) does not confirm your hypothesis. You can't just backtrack from your initial argument like that and pretend they are compatible.

At the time Theodora led Byzantium, it was called...wait for it...Rome.

a) It was called "Ρωμανία" (Romania i.e. "land of the Romans"). There was in fact a distinction between the polity and the actual city of Rome.
b) It was always called like that. No one denies the empire was always called the Roman empire (which is why it is the Roman empire), but I've already given a justification to avoid the merge in Civ 6, if not indefinitely due to the limitations of the Civ model of civilization asymmetry.

Mehmed II, after his conquest of Constantinople, proclaimed himself Kayser-i Rum, or Emperor/Caesar of Rome, if you want. His Empire more or less occupied former lands of the Byzantine, or if you want, Eastern Roman Empire. Does that mean Mehmed II should lead Romans?

That's different. The title was simply a way to legitimize his rule over Roman Orthodox subjects and ratify his sovereignty over Constantinople. He definitely can't be considered to be in line with the imperial dynasties starting from Octavian, which is exactly how the Byzantines drew their legitimacy.

As I've said, Byzantines were Romans, there's simply no denying that and it's an indisputable historical fact. The point is that their inclusion has happened on the grounds on its evolution from the stereotypical ancient portrayal of Rome in all iterations of Civilization thus far. Since Civ's design is such that it makes it extremely hard to do justice to the same polity over the course of millennia, it is better to keep them separate until Firaxis gets both of them right and the design of the game allows for a smooth merge. Once that's possible, then by all means, merge them, Byzantium cannot afford not to be part of it.

 

[Kimiimaro]

That's different. The title was simply a way to legitimize his rule over Roman Orthodox subjects and ratify his sovereignty over Constantinople. He definitely can't be considered to be in line with the imperial dynasties starting from Octavian, which is exactly how the Byzantines drew their legitimacy.

As I've said, Byzantines were Romans, there's simply no denying that and it's an indisputable historical fact. The point is that their inclusion has happened on the grounds on its evolution from the stereotypical ancient portrayal of Rome in all iterations of Civilization thus far. Since Civ's design is such that it makes it extremely hard to do justice to the same polity over the course of millennia, it is better to keep them separate until Firaxis gets both of them right and the design of the game allows for a smooth merge. Once that's possible, then by all means, merge them, Byzantium cannot afford not to be part of it.

I do not deny this. It was just (I admit not exactly good) attempt to question if a leader should lead Rome if he clams that he's leader of Rome, as I'm opposed to merging Byzantine Empire and Roman Empire into one civilisation. But yes, I agree with you that Byzantine Empire had full rights to be called the Roman Empire, and the Byzantines, albeit mostly Greeks, were Romans.

I'd also like to say that you just made a quite good point in the second part of the reply, sir

This leads me to an interesting thought for PhoenicianGold. Venetians. The city of Venice was founded in marshlands by refugees of sacked Roman city of Aquileia. That would make Venetians sort of descendants of Romans, too, wouldn't it? Should Venetians then be merged with Rome?

 

[Aurelesk]

You can't draw the comparison to Catherine de Medici. Catherine de Medici was ITALIAN, but ruled a kingdom that spoke FRENCH. Theodora is of Cypriot GREEK descent and ruled a (koine) GREEK-speaking empire.

I don't think the origin of Catherine de' Medici is important. In fact, few people really know that she was from Florence. Mostly because Italia wasn't united yet, so the republic wasn't a threat back then. She was speaking french (with strong accent).

The problem is multiple:

• The people that never heard of her will think she's not suitable to be a symbol of France, contrary to Louis XIV, Napoleon, Charles de Gaule or even Joan of Arc that have strong history (Culture and War, Revolution and War, Resistance and War, or Religion and War).
• The people that remember some french history will remember she ruled the kindom during the Wars of Religion and failed to solve it. Worst: there are a huge assassination of protestant people during her reign (St. Bartholomew's Day massacre) and she maybe have a role in it.
• The people that remember some gossips about her know that the king didn't like her, and she was a bitter machiavelic grumpy woman, jealous of power and ready to do anything to maintain her influence. She was the Black Queen!

At first glance, Catherine de' Medici is a really really bad choice. That's what I thought too. But somehow, I learned a little more about her due to this. She wasn't that bad. She tried to ease the tension between catholics and protestants, during a time where the monarchy was about to crumble (having dying heir didn't help). In fact, she was willing to do anything. But not for her: she had nothing and did everything to save the crown for her sons and that France don't fall in a total civil war. And, contrary to Cleopatra, she succeeded. She's more than a Cercei Lannister in the game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Jeez it's painful to spell these things out for people so willing to equivocate. An Eastern European civ focusing on religion is not unique juxtaposed against Poland, Russia, and Georgia. With respect to unique buildings, nothing Byzantium could build stands well against the Lavra. And with respect to music, nothing Byzantium could use stands well against Georgia's music. The civ is conceptually trumped or at least impinged on nearly all fronts... The only thing that truly sets it apart from its neighbors now is its connection to Rome, which the devs will capitalize on.

Why would you give Byzantium a unique religious building at all?

Would giving the Byzantines a building that somewhat focuses on religion be bad at all?
Initially I had the idea to give them a unique Govt Plaza but then I thought that a unique second tier building might work out for them. Not sure what it would be called other than a "basilica". It would function like the Grand Master's Chapel and the Foreign Ministry and could house a religious work slot. It could be a combination of a church and the architectural "basilica" style that they used for many government buildings including their senate.

 

[Basileus Rhomaion]

Would giving the Byzantines a building that somewhat focuses on religion be bad at all?
Initially I had the idea to give them a unique Govt Plaza but then I thought that a unique second tier building might work out for them. Not sure what it would be called other than a "basilica". It would function like the Grand Master's Chapel and the Foreign Ministry and could house a religious work slot. It could be a combination of a church and the architectural "basilica" style that they used for many government buildings including their senate.

It wouldn't be bad (unless, you know, the building itself is in fact bad *cough*Tsikhe*cough*), but my point is why would one want the Byzantines to necessarily have one, in the context of PhoenicianGold saying Lavra is already more powerful than anything the Byzantines can muster, allegedly. Which is kind of ironic as well, because the Lavra in real life isn't actually Russian, it is in fact Byzantine.

Other than the Basilica (which I think is a bit too broad), you could have the Augustaion, unique walls (that are actually good),the Porphyra (where the children of the Emperor would be born), the Bureau of Barbarians etc. If the devs really look into it, they'll find some quite interesting choices.

 

[Guandao]

Canada has been moved to the alternate leader list. Congratulations Canada!

 

[JJOne]

I don't get it. You have some extremely obscure leaders in your lists, but you don't have Mao or Deng Xiaoping for China. Or Mobutu for Congo. Or Kim Il Sung for Korea. Stalin for Georgia. Franco for Spain.

 

[Guandao]

I don't get it. You have some extremely obscure leaders in your lists, but you don't have Mao or Deng Xiaoping for China. Or Mobutu for Congo. Or Kim Il Sung for Korea. Stalin for Georgia. Franco for Spain.

Because those leaders are controversial and have little chance of getting added in Civ6. I also dislike 20th century leaders.

 

[JJOne]

Mitterand/Nixon/Truman/Schmidt/Adenauer/Lenin, all 20th century, all controversial.
But each has his own opinion.

 

[Guandao]

Mitterand/Nixon/Truman/Schmidt/Adenauer/Lenin, all 20th century, all controversial.
But each has his own opinion.

For Mao/Deng Xiaoping, China will ban the game if they are added as leaders. Mobutu doesn't make sense as a leader of Kongo, because it's pre-colonial Kongo as opposed to the modern state. Kim Il Sung is unlikely to be added, since he's North Korean. Stalin can't lead Georgia, he would lead Russia instead, but people still hate him (some love him though). Franco probably has a mixed legacy in Spain (like Stalin, some still love him).

 

[Siptah]

Mitterand/Nixon/Truman/Schmidt/Adenauer/Lenin, all 20th century, all controversial.
But each has his own opinion.

Truman could get the ability to use nukes without diplo penalty. Seriously, it‘s a complete riddle to me why anyone would choose him over Mao or Lenin (the latter I‘d like to have actually).

When did the US decide that the official orthography has a . behind the S by the way? As far as I know, S is the full name and not an abbreviation.

 

[Phrozen]

Truman could get the ability to use nukes without diplo penalty. Seriously, it‘s a complete riddle to me why anyone would choose him over Mao or Lenin (the latter I‘d like to have actually).

When did the US decide that the official orthography has a . behind the S by the way? As far as I know, S is the full name and not an abbreviation.

I would rather have Eisenhower as a cold war American leader. Really, the only Soviet leader who may get in the game eventually is Khruschev for the destalnization and space race.

 

[Guandao]

Truman could get the ability to use nukes without diplo penalty. Seriously, it‘s a complete riddle to me why anyone would choose him over Mao or Lenin (the latter I‘d like to have actually).

When did the US decide that the official orthography has a . behind the S by the way? As far as I know, S is the full name and not an abbreviation.

Mao is better than Truman?

 

[JJOne]

Mao made the people's republic. Deng Xiaoping set the grounds for the rising economical power of China. They defined modern China much more than Truman or Th. Roosevelt did it for the US.
Speaking of this, why on Earth choose Th. Roosevelt in game? He doesn't really seem one of the important US presidents to me. Not even if we limit it to the 20th century. FDR, Reagan, Wilson did more.

 

[Guandao]

Mao made the people's republic. Deng Xiaoping set the grounds for the rising economical power of China. They defined modern China much more than Truman or Th. Roosevelt did it for the US.
Speaking of this, why on Earth choose Th. Roosevelt in game? He doesn't really seem one of the important US presidents to me. Not even if we limit it to the 20th century. FDR, Reagan, Wilson did more.

Well, putting Mao and Deng in the game would result in a ban in China (government doesn't want those leaders to be defeated in a game). Why have China represented by a 20th century leader instead of the numerous emperors that existed? The Emperors look more distinct than Mao's Westernized jacket.

Teddy has personality, and he's on Mt Rushmore. Wilson was kind of racist, so I doubt Firaxis would pick him. FDR is controversial according to some of the posters here. And Reagan died not long ago.

 

[Lord Lakely]

For Mao/Deng Xiaoping, China will ban the game if they are added as leaders.

They can be reskinned for the Chinese edition (I mean Mao was turned into "Tiangzong of Tang" in Civ4) but this would be really awkward for Firaxis since they would have to hire a different voice actor, specficially for China.

 

[Guandao]

They can be reskinned for the Chinese edition (I mean Mao was turned into "Tiangzong of Tang" in Civ4) but this would be really awkward for Firaxis since they would have to hire a different voice actor, specficially for China.

Taizong of Tang....
And I really wouldn't want to play as Mao Zedong in the game....so much death is on his hands....

 

[Siptah]

Taizong of Tang....
And I really wouldn't want to play as Mao Zedong in the game....so much death is on his hands....

Yes, even more than on Truman’s. A bit less then on Genghis though. I wouldn‘t want him in the game and I didn‘t say I would. But you can‘t deny that Mao was a great historical figure and leader for China. I don‘t approve his methods at all and he also had some politics that backfired heavily - to his people‘s harm. But neither do I approve of Truman‘s, Obama‘s, Erdogan‘s, or Franco‘s methods (strange list, some Americans will have to take offense ) who we can judge by modern standards.

 

[Guandao]

Yes, even more than on Truman’s. A bit less then on Genghis though. I wouldn‘t want him in the game and I didn‘t say I would. But you can‘t deny that Mao was a great historical figure and leader for China. I don‘t approve his methods at all and he also had some politics that backfired heavily - to his people‘s harm. But neither do I approve of Truman‘s, Obama‘s, Erdogan‘s, or Franco‘s methods (strange list, some Americans will have to take offense ) who we can judge by modern standards.

What about Putin or Xi Jinping?
Mao was great in what way? In creating a Communist Party maybe....My mom knows him as the guy who never brushed his teeth because he thought he was a tiger! My grandma was brainwashed to adore him for giving her an education. I think she regrets moving to Malaysia to marry my grandpa. Staying in China and becoming part of the Communist Party would have been a better option in her opinion. He was anti-intellectual and I consider myself an intellectual....And poor sparrows

You rather the Americans attempted a full-scale invasion of Japan?

 

[Guandao]

The Inca have been moved to the alternate leaders wishlist. Congratulations Inca!