Uma Thurman re the Weinstein issue & something to come

[Ryika]

No Lex, you were just a terrible individual who has done terrible things, thankfully realized that what you've done was not okay, and hopefully that means that you'll be a better person in the future. Don't now drag all other men into your little redemption story just because it makes you feel better. Most men have not one anything bad on a level worth noting, not to women, not to men, and grouping them in with people like you or Al Franken is just terrible.

 

[Kyriakos]

You can either be part of it, or be part of the problem. I sympathize with you, to a degree. It's awful to realize that you're part of the problem. I remember well the feeling of actual nausea that rose up in me when I realized I was part of the problem, and when I remembered the various things I've done that may have prompted a #metoo post or two. Nothing as bad as what Franken did, mind you, but bad enough. And I think pretty much every man has those moments, to the point that a man who has done nothing at all objectionable to women is about as rare as a women who has had nothing objectionable done to her.

Incidentally, the comparisons with primordial sin are ridiculous. The whole argument is that this is a culture, thus it is something that was learned, something that we started doing, and hopefully that we can undo. To some extent, sexual violence may be inherent in the cultural category we call "men." One of the tasks we have is figuring out whether that cultural category could have meaning without those harmful aspects, and, if so, what that meaning should be.



Your categories of interpretation need work. If a man sees an incident of sexual violence and doesn't intervene, he is specifically guilty of complicity in that act of sexual violence (not just as guilty as the perpetrator - there are, after all, degrees of guilt, which you seem to be forgetting or ignoring in order to make this whole argument in the first place - but guilty nonetheless). The kind of guilt we're talking about here is far more diffuse and far more pervasive.

https://thebaffler.com/latest/weinstein-masculinity-powell

This is a good read (a bit long, but worth it in my view) on the subject. It takes the position that it is possible, though difficult, to untangle sexual violence from masculinity.

Guilt-peddling is a business you really don't want to be in. I certainly am not opening the door to those selling

 

[Lexicus]

Guilt-peddling is a business you really don't want to be in. I certainly am not opening the door to those selling

If you stick your fingers in your ears and hum loudly enough maybe you can drown out the sound of the approaching storm...

 

[Kyriakos]

If you stick your fingers in your ears and hum loudly enough maybe you can drown out the sound of the approaching storm...

Come on. You should know better than assuming you know how i am, and thus to be annoyed that i am dismissing your rather crude accusation as imaginary.
I do happen, at any rate, to not be sexist. I am rather polite and careful, though not always due to positive reason. Personality types differ.

No Lex, you were just a terrible individual who has done terrible things, thankfully realized that what you've done was not okay, and hopefully that means that you'll be a better person in the future. Don't now drag all other men into your little redemption story just because it makes you feel better. Most men have not one anything bad on a level worth noting, not to women, not to men, and grouping them in with people like you or Al Franken is just terrible.

+1 for mischief

 

[Senethro]

"I don't do it, noone I know does it, and I don't know how to explain crime statistics on rape and sexual harassment. But men aren't to blame."

 

[Kyriakos]

"I don't do it, noone I know does it, and I don't know how to explain crime statistics on rape and sexual harassment. But men aren't to blame."

Close, i mean only the part in red wasn't said by me.

 

[Lexicus]

Come on. You should know better than assuming you know how i am

I don't know how you are Kyr, but generally men who tell me they've never done anything to contribute to this problem are either lying, or they don't understand that their behavior is problematic, which in either case proves my point.

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't know how you are Kyr, but generally men who tell me they've never done anything to contribute to this problem are either lying, or they don't understand that their behavior is problematic, which in either case proves my point.

You are assuming too much, my friend. You could read a bit on how different people can be to one another. It is rather ludicrous to accuse me of anything just cause you yourself feel like presenting your own self as guilty of it. That is yours to solve or bare, but certainly not my own responsibility.

A note could also be that twisting the thread so as to be (also) about people here (let alone on a thread with this topic...) isn't a good idea

 

[Senethro]

Close, i mean only the part in red wasn't said by me.

Its the pattern. Most men are too emotional to not get personally involved and horrendously offended in a discussion about a systemic or cultural problem. Often it looks like an intellectual inability to separate their selves from group identities.

Hence you say guilt peddling.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Imo we should end this here, cause it turned to amateur (substitute the term with 'popular', if you want something less derogatory) psychology and helps with nothing.

 

[Lexicus]

It is rather ludicrous to accuse me of anything just

I don't believe I did actually accuse you of anything, but surely there is a reason you are interpreting my words that way. I mean, my post up there had nothing to do with you at all but for some reason you decided to chime in with the time-honored refrain of "not all men"...

 

[Ryika]

"I don't do it, noone I know does it, and I don't know how to explain crime statistics on rape and sexual harassment. But men aren't to blame."

The crime statistics are very easy to explain: A small number of people gets away with a lot of things, because a large part of these things are too minor for victims to get into a legal battle over. Being grabbed on the ass qualifies as sexual assault in any survey about sexual assault, but surely most people would not get into a legal battle over it, which means that the individual who grabbed the ass, is able to continue to grab asses and will likely continue to do so in the future. With how many people a person meets in their lives, it's likely that they will meet a few people like Lexicus sooner or later.

If all men were part of this culture however, you'd see far worse statistics.

Its the pattern. Most men are too emotional to not get personally involved and horrendously offended in a discussion about a systemic or cultural problem. Often it looks like an intellectual inability to separate their selves from group identities.

Hence you say guilt peddling.

Or maybe people who are not in your little ideological bubble in general are just annoyed by the sexist nonsense that you spout.
Because when you have to find an explanation for why most people don't agree with you, maybe the problem is actually you.

 

[inthesomeday]

The earth is flat and at the center of the universe, after all.

 

[Berzerker]

are democrats sharing responsibility for Moore's behavior? hell no... But when a Democrat behaves poorly, its all of us, its the culture...

 

[Ryika]

The earth is flat and at the center of the universe, after all.

That would be a good gotcha had I claimed that the fact that the majority of people disagree with you is proof that you're wrong, which of course I have not.
I merely noted that it's a warning signal, which I think is sensible given the scope of the theory, and the lack of substantiation for that theory.

This theory is not on the level of Galileo who used his brilliance analyze that data he had gathered and figured out that the earth moves around the sun, it is on the level of today's Flat Earthers, who have a theory, want it to be true, and will bend everything the way they need it to fit that theory.

 

[inthesomeday]

Valessa, Kyriakos, do you guys truly believe that cultural/institutional sexism just doesn't exist? @Kyriakos in particular; do you really think that you don't have any responsibility to fight sexism?

I mean, come on. This is so elementary. If you're offended when someone points out institutional or cultural problems-- if you feel like it's a personal affront-- it's probably because you feel guilty about it somehow. Nobody said "each and every individual man is a rapist". We asserted the fact that the patriarchy is ever-present and a much larger, institutionally enforced problem than "a few guys are bad." If you feel like you've been accused of something then maybe you're thinking of your own behavior as representing that of the patriarchy, in which case you ought to re-examine yourself.

 

[rah]

are democrats sharing responsibility for Moore's behavior? hell no... But when a Democrat behaves poorly, its all of us, its the culture...

Maybe some would if he actually admitted it. That seems to be the difference. Most of the Dems actually admit they behaved poorly. Roy just keeps denying and calling all of his accusers liars. People have more sympathy when you apologize.

 

[Kyriakos]

Valessa, Kyriakos, do you guys truly believe that cultural/institutional sexism just doesn't exist? @Kyriakos in particular; do you really think that you don't have any responsibility to fight sexism?

I mean, come on. This is so elementary. If you're offended when someone points out institutional or cultural problems-- if you feel like it's a personal affront-- it's probably because you feel guilty about it somehow. Nobody said "each and every individual man is a rapist". We asserted the fact that the patriarchy is ever-present and a much larger, institutionally enforced problem than "a few guys are bad." If you feel like you've been accused of something then maybe you're thinking of your own behavior as representing that of the patriarchy, in which case you ought to re-examine yourself.

Hm, i don't have any responsibility apart from those stated by law. Life is already difficult without putting on a cape and crusading, imo. It should suffice that i myself am well-behaved
Re whether cultural/institutional racism exists: it does, although not in the same variety in all countries, nor in all walks of life. Eg you'd find less of it in the world of literary events/presentations/translation/publishing than (say) in the football stadium. Either way, it isn't an ill i can nor would logically be expected to mend, much like i am not to blame nor expected to make up for the next person being a dick.

ps: mentioning 'the patriarchy' was... interesting ^^ I could think of an oxymoron which would at the same time be a neologism, and refer to 'the patriarchy' as a neo-parochial statement.

 

[Berzerker]

Maybe some would if he actually admitted it. That seems to be the difference. Most of the Dems actually admit they behaved poorly. Roy just keeps denying and calling all of his accusers liars. People have more sympathy when you apologize.

True, but if Moore did admit it would anyone spread the blame like they're doing with Franken?

 

[Ryika]

Valessa, Kyriakos, do you guys truly believe that cultural/institutional sexism just doesn't exist?

That's some record-level goalpost-moving there, from "Every man has original guilt!" to "Our culture sometimes harbors sexist attitudes... right? I mean... right?"

It is obviously the case that sexism exists in our culture, but this does not mean that the majority of men are sexist as Lexicus wants us to believe. It is simply an idiotic idea that a man is part of the problem just because he was born a man, and I would be disgusted at myself for thinking that about any of the men around me. People are raised by an infinite amount of influences, and whether an individual picks up the sexist content they may see from time to time, depends on a lot of factors, and in most men does not actually manifest into sexist behavior, or even sexist attitudes.