Uma Thurman re the Weinstein issue & something to come

[Ryika]

I can only imagine the harmony in a relationship where a man with a mortgage and a career needs to pick up his girlfriend from middle/high school. The harmony must be off the charts.

I can only imagine the harmony in a relationship where a man with a mortgage and a career comes home and needs to help his wife with rearing the children. The harmony must be double off the charts!

 

[Synobun]

I can only imagine the harmony in a relationship where a man with a mortgage and a career comes home and needs to help his wife with rearing the children. The harmony must be double off the charts!

Should we assume here that the 'wife' is really a 14 year old? A la Roy Moore, it's okay if you ask for permission from the mother.

 

[Broken_Erika]

My parents first met when my mom was 14 and my dad was 20. Four years later they got married and they've been together 43 years.

 

[Ryika]

Should we assume here that the 'wife' is really a 14 year old? A la Roy Moore, it's okay if you ask for permission from the mother.

No, both of them 34 years old.

 

[inthesomeday]

I think that there's no need to discuss the intricacies of pedophilia, and that everyone outside the more edgy elements of discussion is roundly condemning Moore's actions as pedophilic.

 

[warpus]

My dad first met my mom when he was 43 and she was in grade 2. 12 years later they married and have been together for 67 years.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Yours is a biblical family in more respects than one

 

[Ryika]

I’m a feminist. I study rape culture. And I don’t want Al Franken to resign.

As a feminist and the author of a book on rape culture, I could reasonably be expected to lead the calls for Al Franken to step down, following allegations that he forced his tongue down a woman’s throat, accompanied by a photo of him grinning as he moves in to grope her breasts while she sleeps. It’s disgusting. He treated a sleeping woman as a comedy prop, no more human than the contents of Carrot Top’s trunk, and I firmly believe he should suffer social and professional consequences for it.

But I don’t believe resigning from his position is the only possible consequence, or the one that’s best for American women.

[...]

It would feel good, momentarily, to see Franken resign and the Democratic governor of Minnesota, Mark Dayton, appoint a senator who has not (as far as we know) harmed women. If I believed for one second that Franken is the only Democrat in the Senate who has done something like this, with or without photographic evidence, I would see that as the best and most appropriate option. But in the world we actually live in, I’m betting that there will be more. And more after that. And they won’t all come from states with Democratic governors and a deep bench of progressive replacements. Some will, if ousted, have their successors chosen by Republicans.

In other words, if we set this precedent in the interest of demonstrating our party’s solidarity with harassed and abused women, we’re only going to drain the swamp of people who, however flawed, still regularly vote to protect women’s rights and freedoms. The legislative branch will remain chockablock with old, white Republican men who regard women chiefly as sex objects and unpaid housekeepers, and we’ll show them how staunchly Democrats oppose their misogynistic attitudes by handing them more power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...culture-and-i-dont-want-al-franken-to-resign/

Flawless logic!

 

[inthesomeday]

That article should begin "I am not a feminist. I study the details of every single penny the Democratic Party lines my bank account with. And it's profitable to say I don't want Al Franken to resign."

 

[Kyriakos]

As a feminist and the author of a book on rape culture, I could reasonably be expected to lead the calls for Al Franken to step down

Eh, no. Who are you, again?

Anyway, the republicans should also oust their creepy politicians. But i think this is setting up to be another 'scandal of the week', and will die out.

Cause, essentially, the bulk of the political world - and moreso those in power - are scum.

 

[innonimatu]

Are we going to get some Tarantino bashing or not? That's all I was looking forward to from this thread!

If it doesn't happen soon she's going to miss the window of the great american sex panic of 2017!

 

[Kyriakos]

I was looking forward to that as well. Maybe Uma will just back down, though. She doesn't seem to be the person that can handle pressure. Let alone that her statement (featuring also the sentence 'i know; i am not a child') was, if anything, childish in tone. (doesn't mean she wasn't possibly victimized; that is an entirely different issue, i am reflecting on whether she will actually say anything in the end).

 

[Traitorfish]

But that's because you Americans are uptight and backwards. Age of consent should obviously be 14, not 18.

The age of consent is 16 or 17 in most American states. It's only 18 in ten states, it's just that one of those states happens to be California.

 

[Kyriakos]

Meanwhile, here is Kevin Spacey's brother, Rod Stewart:

He claims that their father was pro-nazi, and sexually molested Rod.

 

[Berzerker]

"I'm going to try and learn from my mistakes" - Al Franken

Is he serious? He hasn't learned yet?

You're disappointing to say the least

 

[Lexicus]

That article should begin "I am not a feminist. I study the details of every single penny the Democratic Party lines my bank account with. And it's profitable to say I don't want Al Franken to resign."

So I actually read that article and I tend to agree with the author's arguments, on the whole - this despite my inclination being that Franken should resign (a position I arrived at after other women came forward to accuse him; one might be a "mistake", but three ain't). Given that in that very article she argues that there will almost certainly be more Democratic Senators who have done things similar to what Franken did, it's pretty difficult to dismiss this as some sort of paid shilling for the Democrats.

In particular, though, I think she is dead-on when she reminds that this is a systemic problem. I'm actually a bit worried at this point because I'm afraid that the - dare I use this phrase? - witch-hunt aspect of this thing might end up sabotaging the need to do real work on changing the culture that produces this sort of behavior. Franken needs to suffer real consequences, and so do all these other men who have transgressed, but we can't pretend the problem is coterminous with these particularly egregious men. It's all of us, and I worry that making scapegoats of the famous guys who are going down really serves no one, and no purpose other than our need to appear virtuous, and perhaps to salve our own guilty consciences.

 

[Kyriakos]

So I actually read that article and I tend to agree with the author's arguments, on the whole - this despite my inclination being that Franken should resign (a position I arrived at after other women came forward to accuse him; one might be a "mistake", but three ain't). Given that in that very article she argues that there will almost certainly be more Democratic Senators who have done things similar to what Franken did, it's pretty difficult to dismiss this as some sort of paid shilling for the Democrats.

In particular, though, I think she is dead-on when she reminds that this is a systemic problem. I'm actually a bit worried at this point because I'm afraid that the - dare I use this phrase? - witch-hunt aspect of this thing might end up sabotaging the need to do real work on changing the culture that produces this sort of behavior. Franken needs to suffer real consequences, and so do all these other men who have transgressed, but we can't pretend the problem is coterminous with these particularly egregious men. It's all of us, and I worry that making scapegoats of the famous guys who are going down really serves no one, and no purpose other than our need to appear virtuous, and perhaps to salve our own guilty consciences.

It isn't 'all of us', though. This being part of the issue.
Franken is just too visible to be salvaged; let alone that he will be replaced by some other democrat there. Maybe the writer is afraid of other prominent members of the democrat party with wives meaning to stay in the race to be president by 2200, but this hardly is a logical argument to make.
Repubs should punish their own scum, though apparently this doesn't look likely at all.

 

[Lexicus]

It isn't 'all of us', though. This being part of the issue.

Of course it is all of us. Saying it is a few bad apples does nothing to address the real problem and may even make it worse.

Franken is just too visible to be salvaged; let alone that he will be replaced by some other democrat there. Maybe the writer is afraid of other prominent members of the democrat party with wives meaning to stay in the race to be president by 2200, but this hardly is a logical argument to make.

Thinking about it more fully, I'm not sure I agree with the writer that it is ultimately counterproductive for Democrats to punish their own on this issue. I have been arguing that the Democrats need to actually live what they say, that 'authenticity' is essential to electoral success if they want to win over the people who have been alienated from politics, and forcing Franken's resignation would certainly be a demonstration of authenticity that would likely help the party in this sense. This is also a relatively low-stakes situation given that a Democrat is likely to replace Franken in office, as you (and the author of that piece) point out.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong about the above re: authenticity but I feel like we need Democrats who believes the things they say and aren't seen to be cynical, careerist political operators. Making excuses for Franken will make the party look like a bunch of cynical, careerist political operators.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Again with the 'primordial sin' replacement you came up with, and collective guilt of all men. I don't wan't to be part of it.

Furthermore, recall that you (a brief while ago, in another thread) claimed that you only deemed all men guilty in case that they didn't intervene upon seeing sexism take place by others (again a debatable and imo false position, but nm) and now you seem to step up to claim that all men are by default guilty of sexism, more so of the type presented in the current sexism/rape/groping celeb scandals.

 

[Lexicus]

^Again with the 'primordial sin' replacement you came up with, and collective guilt of all men. I don't wan't to be part of it.

You can either be part of it, or be part of the problem. I sympathize with you, to a degree. It's awful to realize that you're part of the problem. I remember well the feeling of actual nausea that rose up in me when I realized I was part of the problem, and when I remembered the various things I've done that may have prompted a #metoo post or two. Nothing as bad as what Franken did, mind you, but bad enough. And I think pretty much every man has those moments, to the point that a man who has done nothing at all objectionable to women is about as rare as a women who has had nothing objectionable done to her.

Incidentally, the comparisons with primordial sin are ridiculous. The whole argument is that this is a culture, thus it is something that was learned, something that we started doing, and hopefully that we can undo. To some extent, sexual violence may be inherent in the cultural category we call "men." One of the tasks we have is figuring out whether that cultural category could have meaning without those harmful aspects, and, if so, what that meaning should be.

Furthermore, recall that you (a brief while ago, in another thread) claimed that you only deemed all men guilty in case that they didn't intervene in case of sexism (again a debatable and imo false position, but nm) and now you seem to step up to claim that all men are by default guilty of sexism, let alone of the type presented on the current sexism scandal.

Your categories of interpretation need work. If a man sees an incident of sexual violence and doesn't intervene, he is specifically guilty of complicity in that act of sexual violence (not just as guilty as the perpetrator - there are, after all, degrees of guilt, which you seem to be forgetting or ignoring in order to make this whole argument in the first place - but guilty nonetheless). The kind of guilt we're talking about here is far more diffuse and far more pervasive.

https://thebaffler.com/latest/weinstein-masculinity-powell

This is a good read (a bit long, but worth it in my view) on the subject. It takes the position that it is possible, though difficult, to untangle sexual violence from masculinity.