Underdevelopped Civs?

[Valkrionn]

Hmm. It's not bad, but it's close to how the Elohim work, and very close to the way the Minor Leaders works... And I'm still hoping for Notque to import it.

 

[Opera]

Unless someone else starts doing them, the Malakim+ and Doviello+ will be the only civs to get the '+' treatment.

So you won't be modding another civ after that?

On topic: I think many people complained about the Bannor not being very flavorful and kinda "the vanilla civ". I'm not sure about that as I never ever played a game with them... But for any civ, I think the flavor is here. I've more idea for new civs than for existing civs, actually.

 

[Mylon]

Well, the scions would actually be best served by a point-based mechanic, because one can have different events increase the spawn rate (different ways to get points). And every turn the cap slowly increases. While random might seem to suit it better, keep in mind the way great people work: It's not necessary that Einstein was planned and predictable, but the entire game is an abstract and uses the great person mechanics to represent that.

As for the dural suggestion... I cannot say the ability to have 3 traits (and choose them) sounds terribly great. I guess I've been spoiled by some of the more interesting mechanics available to other civs ( Scions, Grigori adventurers, even if it's their main selling point ), etc. Sure, it might give them power, but it still keeps them similar to other civs.

Also, what if unique buildings were tied to traits rather than specific civilizations? While this would make the civilizations a bit more like one another, each civilization would have more buildings overall.

 

[Pike the Hands]

As far as the Dural go, I had the idea of letting the Dural gain leader traits from the statues they build.
Dannmos would start with only Industrious and gain more traits (I'm thinking up to 2) as they go. Sort of a "build your own leader" setup.
Statue of Purity - Creative (available at Drama)
Statue of Justice - Organized (available at Code of Laws)
Statue of Faith - Spiritual (available at Priesthood)
Statue of Hope - Philosophical (available at Writing)
Statue of Diligence - Defender (available at Archery)
Statue of Prudence - Financial (available at Currency)
Statue of Charity - Expansive (available at Construction)

What do y'all think?

Why put a cap on the number of traits gained? If all of them come later in the game (with the discovery of set techs) and the statues aren't super-cheap, I'm not convinced it'd be all that unbalanced to catch 'em all.

 

[Mylon]

Why put a cap on the number of traits gained? If all of them come later in the game (with the discovery of set techs) and the statues aren't super-cheap, I'm not convinced it'd be all that unbalanced to catch 'em all.

Then the civ really would be overpowered! Even if the traits cost as much as a typical world wonder (say, 600 hammers) it still wouldn't be too hard to grab them all, especially since there's no competition for them.

 

[Breez]

Then the civ really would be overpowered! Even if the traits cost as much as a typical world wonder (say, 600 hammers) it still wouldn't be too hard to grab them all, especially since there's no competition for them.

If they came late due to tech requirements, would it really make that much difference? Sure it would add to their power but would it be TOO much compared to how under powered they are now?

What if you limited the trait gain to ONLY statues built in the Capital? If you could spread them out it becomes pretty fast to knock em out, but if you could only do in 1 city then that is semi limiting. Add to that often my capital is were MANY of my wonders are made, meaning I would have to use a 2nd city for those.

If 600 isn't enough, then what about 700? 800? It is adding a trait... say 1000 each?

I don't know maybe still too much... Maybe SOME of them could offer traits but nto all of em. Don't limit how many they can get, just limit which/how many are even available.

 

[Valkrionn]

So you won't be modding another civ after that?

On topic: I think many people complained about the Bannor not being very flavorful and kinda "the vanilla civ". I'm not sure about that as I never ever played a game with them... But for any civ, I think the flavor is here. I've more idea for new civs than for existing civs, actually.

Yeah, I'll be going to basic. No chance to mod another civ.

The Bannor flavour IS there, but it's all tied up in Crusade, which is usually late-game. Personally, I have no real problem with that, other than that crusade forces them out of their happiness civics....

Well, the scions would actually be best served by a point-based mechanic, because one can have different events increase the spawn rate (different ways to get points). And every turn the cap slowly increases. While random might seem to suit it better, keep in mind the way great people work: It's not necessary that Einstein was planned and predictable, but the entire game is an abstract and uses the great person mechanics to represent that.

As for the dural suggestion... I cannot say the ability to have 3 traits (and choose them) sounds terribly great. I guess I've been spoiled by some of the more interesting mechanics available to other civs ( Scions, Grigori adventurers, even if it's their main selling point ), etc. Sure, it might give them power, but it still keeps them similar to other civs.

Also, what if unique buildings were tied to traits rather than specific civilizations? While this would make the civilizations a bit more like one another, each civilization would have more buildings overall.

Lots of people have argued the points vs random before, and ultimately I think its up to Tarq... Who has said he prefers the random mechanic.

I agree about the Dural. I'd like a fix that adds to their flavour, rather than simply adds traits.

I don't know about this... Do you mean in addition to civilization buildings, or instead of?

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I agree about the Dural. I'd like a fix that adds to their flavour, rather than simply adds traits.

An honest question: how is their flavour different than the Grigori? The Grigori have tons of great people...and the Dural honor achievement above all else. As it stands the only thing that distinguishes them is mechanics (in that the Grigori have a cool one and the Dural don't) and leader personality.

 

[Valkrionn]

Grigori are led by an angel, are agnostic, focus on adventurers and allowing people to live as they wish, etc.... Dural seem to be more classical. Focus on buildings, great works, things along those lines. Personally, I see the Dural as either Roman or Classical Greek... I'd actually prefer to see them developed along greek lines.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Grigori are led by an angel, are agnostic, focus on adventurers and allowing people to live as they wish, etc.... Dural seem to be more classical. Focus on buildings, great works, things along those lines. Personally, I see the Dural as either Roman or Classical Greek... I'd actually prefer to see them developed along greek lines.

Cool. If that is the case there should be plenty of ways to develop them.

1. Give them some unique units/promotions/equipment based loosely on Greek myths and history. Winged sandals, pegasus riders, the Aegis, the Golden Fleece, cyclops, hydra, minotaurs, gorgons, hoplites, etc...

2. Bonuses for using specialists, with perhaps some minor penalty reflecting their tendency to have tunnel vision. Sages that produce extra research but cause unhealth? Merchants that raise crime? Perhaps their melee units are unwilling to retreat in the face of danger and recklessly seek out opportunities to perform their craft (crazed).

3. Heroes with a touch of divinity? Hercules would be a good model for this.

4. Unique features with a Greek theme with a high flavourstart weight for the Dural. Mount Olympus?

 

[BenjaminEmbarec]

Personally the ONLY civs that, flavor wise, I think are close enough that they could be merged are the Grigori and the Dural. They both praise the works of man rather then works of the gods.. In fact I had a bit of an idea for them. Merge them both, maybe removing a few of the Dural buildings, and have two possible leaders. If you are playing as Cassie, make a hero medic unit, Danmos, available early. No attack, low deffense, but various city-boosting spells... Perhaps even adding in an ability to give added training to units in the city? Ballance would be needed to figure out what's a good boost, but I could see a unique spell-building that gives a bonus to culture and adventurer GP in the city he's in. And if you choose Danmos as your leader, have a late hero, Cassiel, say... perhaps at Theology or Divine essence that has average stats and is Immortal, perhaps with the spell Behold! on him? [That is the new Grigori "Wonder" spell, correct? I havn't played Grigori for a few patches, I've been testing the new civs.]

True, the lizards ballance-wise could be joined, but flavor wise.. I don't think merging them would work. And I'm curious if it's possible to attach unique units and buildigns to a leader rather then a civ... If so, I could honestly see the Kahdi completely "removed" as a civilization, and just use the leader as one that can be used by any civilization, with a few obvious exceptions... I don't see the Clan or Doviello following him for example, nor Bannor..

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally the ONLY civs that, flavor wise, I think are close enough that they could be merged are the Grigori and the Dural. They both praise the works of man rather then works of the gods.. In fact I had a bit of an idea for them. Merge them both, maybe removing a few of the Dural buildings, and have two possible leaders. If you are playing as Cassie, make a hero medic unit, Danmos, available early. No attack, low deffense, but various city-boosting spells... Perhaps even adding in an ability to give added training to units in the city? Ballance would be needed to figure out what's a good boost, but I could see a unique spell-building that gives a bonus to culture and adventurer GP in the city he's in. And if you choose Danmos as your leader, have a late hero, Cassiel, say... perhaps at Theology or Divine essence that has average stats and is Immortal, perhaps with the spell Behold! on him? [That is the new Grigori "Wonder" spell, correct? I havn't played Grigori for a few patches, I've been testing the new civs.]

True, the lizards ballance-wise could be joined, but flavor wise.. I don't think merging them would work. And I'm curious if it's possible to attach unique units and buildigns to a leader rather then a civ... If so, I could honestly see the Kahdi completely "removed" as a civilization, and just use the leader as one that can be used by any civilization, with a few obvious exceptions... I don't see the Clan or Doviello following him for example, nor Bannor..

Leader rather than civ is done already for the Scions, so it's easily possible.

 

[Opera]

Yeah, it's certainly possible... but only with Python, I think. Maybe checks in the canBuild and canTrain functions (or similar names, I don't remember).

It may be weird but I thought about a somewhat Greek civ and an idea occurred to me: a good greek hero for a dark fantasy setting like FfH? Kratos from God of War!

 

[Mylon]

Tying buildings to leader traits is already in: The command post uses this. Like I said, the advantage of many of the unique buildings were done this way is there will be more unique buildings (either entirely unique or replacements) overall without having to necessary add more in. As for how to tie buildings to particular leaders... I'm not sure if that's possible given the current code, but it would not be impossible to add in.

As for making the Dural buildings that grant traits buildable only in the capital, I guess that's a reasonable limitation. I do really enjoy the college though: The free specialist per city is pretty powerful.

 

[WarKirby]

I like the dural as a seperate civ.

They're good. Grigori are neutral isolationists.

I don't think any civs should be merged at all. just improve those which need it.

 

[WarKirby]

Cool. If that is the case there should be plenty of ways to develop them.

1. Give them some unique units/promotions/equipment based loosely on Greek myths and history. Winged sandals, pegasus riders, the Aegis, the Golden Fleece, cyclops, hydra, minotaurs, gorgons, hoplites, etc...

2. Bonuses for using specialists, with perhaps some minor penalty reflecting their tendency to have tunnel vision. Sages that produce extra research but cause unhealth? Merchants that raise crime? Perhaps their melee units are unwilling to retreat in the face of danger and recklessly seek out opportunities to perform their craft (crazed).

3. Heroes with a touch of divinity? Hercules would be a good model for this.

4. Unique features with a Greek theme with a high flavourstart weight for the Dural. Mount Olympus?

Have a look at their units, and their theme music. And City names. What gives you the impression they have greek inspiration?

And mythic creatures, or divine heroes, seem waaay out of character. They;re about the achievements of common man.

I see them with a regal, english feel. Kind of like victorian england at the turn of the century, but without the electricity and steam engines. But I think they have the same sense of wonder and discovery, driven to new industrial and technological achievements. Their music reflects a regal feel, I think.

 

[Valkrionn]

I like the dural as a seperate civ.

They're good. Grigori are neutral isolationists.

I don't think any civs should be merged at all. just improve those which need it.

I agree completely here. Prop civs up, give them unique mechanics. Don't just eliminate them.

Have a look at their units, and their theme music. And City names. What gives you the impression they have greek inspiration?

And mythic creatures, or divine heroes, seem waaay out of character. They;re about the achievements of common man.

I see them with a regal, english feel. Kind of like victorian england at the turn of the century, but without the electricity and steam engines. But I think they have the same sense of wonder and discovery, driven to new industrial and technological achievements. Their music reflects a regal feel, I think.

That would have been me, although I didn't mean to that extent... Was really only talking about their building style. Victorian could work too, but I just like the idea of greek style buildings for them. They do have a large focus on marble and form rather than function, after all.

Would be rather interesting for them to have steampower at later tech levels though....

 

[25Hour]

Hmm... how about letting the Dural be the only civ that can build unique items? (As World Units that can then be picked up, like the Golden Hammers.) For example, something like:

Robe of the Fey: Grants ability to travel through rival territory, invisibility, +1 movement. +100% production speed with Shadow mana. 400 hammers, requires Knowledge of the Ether. Can be settled as a Great Merchant.

Or:

Dean's Scepter: +100% passive experience gain for Adepts that hold it. Can be settled as a Great Sage. Requires College, costs 500 hammers (triple production speed with Metamagic mana.) You CAN get it early, but only if you're willing to sac early production...

Or:

Faebolg's Ring: +2 strength, but unit has a 4% chance each turn of getting the StackEffect promotion "Aged" (-10% strength, permanent.) Requires Octopus Overlords. Okay, a bit out of flavor for Danmos, but that just means we need a neutral Duralli leader. Just because they're craftsmen doesn't mean the items they make are necessarily Good-aligned...

And, of course, the end-game ones would even more powerful. I can see this as being pretty neat, although it might cause jealous neighbors trying to steal them... but this would also be in flavor, so it's all good.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Have a look at their units, and their theme music. And City names. What gives you the impression they have greek inspiration?

And mythic creatures, or divine heroes, seem waaay out of character. They;re about the achievements of common man.

I see them with a regal, english feel. Kind of like victorian england at the turn of the century, but without the electricity and steam engines. But I think they have the same sense of wonder and discovery, driven to new industrial and technological achievements. Their music reflects a regal feel, I think.

Valkrionn's post that I was responding to.


I don't know much about the lore. Don't care, really. I'm just in this for the interesting game.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Would be rather interesting for them to have steampower at later tech levels though....

Would the Mechanos stuff from Orbis be useful here? I know that civ is supposed to have a steampunk feel. That would definitely differentiate them from the Grigori.