UNGY-02 We like our people

[Rusten]

Nicely played and a nice report, definitely worth waiting for!

Turn 107: Ragnar seeks enlightenment & switches to Buddhism.

Very nice, I guess Justinian has been spamming him with missionaries (borders closed with Isabella I guess). We should definitely bring the world against Izzy and possibly even steal some cities. Ragnar circumnavigating is pretty scary, I'd hate to face those ships.

Will look at the save soon and hopefully have some thoughts.

That puts silverbullet up next and me on deck.

 

[Olodune]

Nice job building the GLib

A few observations for the next set

-We currently have only 5 workers for 6 cities, more are needed as several cities are already working unimproved tiles, these are a high priority.

-Justinian has Calendar available for trade, after putting in a few turns of research trading Aesthetics for it would be good to swap (Athens will grow into unhappy in 6 turns).

-We have at least two more cities worth founding immediately. One to grab the floodplains north of Argos, and the other to grab the 2Fish+Cattle site south of Athens.

-I would like to see at least one city working cottages. Sparta would be my first choice.

-Sparta is going to generate a GSci in 4 turns and Athens in 3. I would temporarily fire the scientists in Athens to allow Sparta's to finish first. After that GP Sparta should focus on growth (and cottages ).

-For the next tech (after getting Calendar from J) Currency looks attractive.

 

[Olodune]

Longer term, looking to get J to declare on Isabella -- and then backstabbing the Byzantines would be an ideal way to expand.

 

[Rusten]

The plan was to cottage that overlap flood plains city as it has no food resource, but if you miss your precious cottages we can do it in Sparta too.
It's one of those cities where both approaches are good and whether you want to farm it or cottage it depends on your preference. That flood plains river city on the other hand is most effective with cottages, it doesn't have much going for it other than to help us pay the bills.

Too bad we can't draft, 2 fish + cow city would be a great contender for the Globe.

 

[silverbullet]

Nice progress Melior.
I am opening the save now and just writing my thoughts as I print, so these are not concrete suggestions, just a list of potential things to do which we can discuss.

1) build a fort 2N of athens. extra +25% defese but become vulnerable to city raiders. None of our troops are city guards and we have a lot of jungles for our workers to chop so maybe later. We will have calendar soon, and need to start chopping the dye jungle in corinth now.


2) At this stage Justinian will either trade monarchy or calendar for BOTH code of laws and Aesthetics. We might want to spend a few turns to calendar to be able to trade both.

3) GS in athens in 3 turns, GS in Sparta in 4 turns. If we let Athens be first, Sparta will need another 100 points for its GS. Do we want to slow down Athens until after Sparta? We get 2 GS earlier this way.
I think one will build an academy in Corinth, and the other will bulb philosophy. Next research should be meditation (2 turns) to unlock the bulb.
After that we can make a caste system+pacifism revolution.
Confucian and taoist missionaries need to go to athens so we can build 3 monasteries there.

4) Next research: I think meditation is next for philosohpy bulb, and after that we could go:

• monarchy partial
• calendar partial
• currency
• Civil service
• construction

5) When do we want to settle the empty space? Where would we settle?
I think 1 city 3W of Thebes for the spices and flood plains and another city for cow and 2 fish (another GP generator).

We could switch the build in thebes+argos to worker+settler (ready in 9 turns).


6) Looking at diplomatic situation I am not happy with KK. He is pleased with Toku and cautious with us, and we don't even have yet any penalty for close borders with him. On the positive side our power 0.6 from his, and he is still not annoyed, so I don't think he will attack yet.
2 things we can do to make him pleased:
- switch his religion to budhist (monastery in athens followed by missionary - 10 turns, we could chop a monastery in corinth too ).
- switch to bureacracy (and possibliy gift him CS when we have it for favourite civic bonus)
At this stage we should probably give in to any tribute demand he might come up with in order to get him pleased.

7) Do we need national epic now, if so, should it be in Athens?


Some feedback I need before I play:
What to research?
General diplomatic plan
What to build in major cities?

I will probably start tomorrow, unless we need more time to discuss.

Long term question:
It seems to me that without drafting we cannot go to war before we have great workshops (guilds, and potentially chemistry). This will likely lead us to a Sci-Method bulb and communism.
The other potential path is to cottage spam and go for democracy, seems inefficient at this state.

 

[Rusten]

Looked at the save--some thoughts.

-For the next tech (after getting Calendar from J) Currency looks attractive.

Agree, but we should research meditation soon too in order to lightbulb philosophy with our next GS.

-Sparta is going to generate a GSci in 4 turns and Athens in 3. I would temporarily fire the scientists in Athens to allow Sparta's to finish first. After that GP Sparta should focus on growth (and cottages ).

Agree with this as well, a good idea.

-We currently have only 5 workers for 6 cities, more are needed as several cities are already working unimproved tiles, these are a high priority.

Definitely, I'll quote that again just to make sure it catches on.

-We currently have only 5 workers for 6 cities, more are needed as several cities are already working unimproved tiles, these are a high priority.

- -

- I'd send the confucian missionary to either Athens or Corinth as they will both benefit from an extra monastery.

- We should start making granaries a priority. Even if we can't whip they are very important. Growth will become increasingly slow (we have a really high happy cap) and it's very useful for caste system GPP starvation.

- Fix the EP ratio so that we can keep watching what Justinian is teching and Kublai Khan's demographics (I suggest a 3/1 ratio).

- We have 4 civics we want to revolt to in the near future; pacifism, HR, CS and bureaucracy. I suggest we start with CS and pacifism as our happy cap isn't an issue yet (odeons coming + dye) and follow up with HR+bureaucracy. This means we want to lightbulb philosophy in 4 turns when the GS from Sparta is spawned and revolt then.

[x-post with silverbullet]

 

[silverbullet]

So if I understand correctly, the suggested path by Rusten and Olodune is:
Meditation->Calendar(partial, trade Aesthetics)->Currency->Civil Service
I agree with this order. We don't need monarchy yet, but we might be able to trade it later for literature+code of laws. Should we? I don't see why not.

We all seem to agree with the plan to let sparta spawn a GS first.
Are we fine with an academy in Corinth for the next GS? It will be some time before paper bulb is available.

We also agree that we need more workers. Should we build worker+settler in Thebes and Corinth or should it be 2 workers?

 

[mystyfly]

Looked at the save, a few notes (you probabely pointed out everything already but still...)

Fire the specs @ Athenes to let sparta generate the GS before. BTW Athenes needs quite some builds, like a granary . Also we should start the NE there ASAP

We can found 2 more cities, one somewhere working the floodplains (where we could get a cottage + buero capital?) and probabely S of Cows (2 fish + grassland cows). This could be a second GPFarm, probabely running merchants and get Wall street later (unless we capture Constantinople with its Shrine).

We should keep our EPs in a way we see Just's research. KK is no research powerhouse so spying on J will be better. We can also probabely steal 1-2 small techs.

Techwise I say go Currency > CS. None of the AIs have any of those techs. We can also head directly for CS but then some (at least 2) AIs would have to research currency soon, which I doubt.

 

[pigswill]

Med for philo bulb sounds good. I'm wondering about fitting HBR in somewhere because the AIs new love affair with construction means we'd be likely to face a stack of cats if it comes to war and HAs could be very useful in that scenario.

We're a bit limited for trading partners - Just and KK. Ragnar may well be willing to trade but he appears to be falling behind on research already.

Sacking two scientists in Athens means it can knock out a couple of workers fairly fast (3 turns each) before resuming GS production.

 

[Rusten]

We can found 2 more cities, one somewhere working the floodplains (where we could get a cottage + buero capital?)

No way, that's a horsehockey city site and definitely not worth changing the capital for. It will have zero production (which bureaucracy also grants bonus too) and thus never have any infrastructure for the commerce which is a waste. Corinth is a far better choice, we don't even have to wait for cottages, we have 2 gem mines and 2 dye plantations producing a lot of commerce already. The other tiles are riverside and later on we'll put windmills there which are more or less instant towns with enviromentalism. Corinth will also be nicely located if we attack Justinian at some point.
[edit]Whether we'll be in enviromentalism is uncertain, but windmills are great anyway, so I'd much rather see Corinth as our capital than someplace else. [/edit]

Meditation->Calendar(partial, trade Aesthetics)->Currency->Civil Service

Yep, this seems good.

Are we fine with an academy in Corinth for the next GS? It will be some time before paper bulb is available.

Academy is fine, but I don't think we'll lightbulb paper. We've spent so many GSs already that I think we won't have enough in time for education then. It's better to use 2 on education than 1 on paper and 1 on edutcation.

We also agree that we need more workers. Should we build worker+settler in Thebes and Corinth or should it be 2 workers?

Athens can be put on settler/worker duty after its lighthouse too.

 

[silverbullet]

I think we have some kind of a consensus on settling, build order and tech order.

Any thoughts about spending hammers on budhist missionaries to KK?
I think that once we convert him to budha AND switch to bureau we are safe from both sides.
On the other hand it makes sense to do another worker/settler in Athens, I am just not sure about the urgency of pleasing KK. If he decides to have enough on his hands it would be too late for us, and our current military is laughable, even if it is on a forested hill. He will have an SOD of cats and keshiks, and once we lose the blocking forest it's game over.

We could build a monastery in Athens and corinth (with chopping some forests in Corinth), and then a missionary in both, or perhaps keep athens on settler/worker and build a monastery and 2 missionaries in Corinth.

I would really like to bribe both Justinian and KK to wars, and I think coverting KK would be a first step in the way, but perhaps you have better suggestions.

Corinth is a far better choice, we don't even have to wait for cottages, we have 2 gem mines and 2 dye plantations producing a lot of commerce already. The other tiles are riverside and later on we'll put windmills there which are more or less instant towns with enviromentalism.

I agree with Rusten that Corinth is the best capital site. The floodplain city could be a commerce city with cottages. I think the best spot for it is grassland river 3E of Thebes, to get the calendar resource in the BFC.

 

[mystyfly]

I think that war with KK wouldn't be that bad since we can easily defend. We just need a fort on this forest. However getting KK to buddhism would be very nice, I'm just not sure if Justininan would do that or if it would be a waste of precious hammers. Most important is that KK and Toku have different religions. Best case for us is wars between them; once they bang their heads together we can mob up so I'd rather be ready.

OTOH if KK is buddhist we're safe in adopting Buddhism ourselves and run a nice religious civic (like Org Rel).

 

[Olodune]

I would rather spend hammers on military over missionaries. Having too many Buddhists will make the middle game more difficult -- but KK as a Buddhist probably would be fine. Your call

Finding a way to initiate Toku/Kublai hostilities would be ideal ...

 

[silverbullet]

I would rather spend hammers on military over missionaries. Having too many Buddhists will make the middle game more difficult -- but KK as a Buddhist probably would be fine. Your call

This brings me to the long term question: when is the "middle game war" going to happen. The way our empire looks now I would say not before chemistry/guild workshops, as our production is bad, our science is good, and we can fit 9 reasonable cities on our land right now. After chemistry we could go for steal and start a massive cannon buildup. To achieve this purpose, I think the short term should be safe diplomacy. I don't think 2 extra spearmen or phalanx would give us as much safety as 2 missionaries, but I am not sure about it.
I would like to hear if anyone has a strong opinion one way or the other, or some comments about the long term goal.

Finding a way to initiate Toku/Kublai hostilities would be ideal ...

Unfortunately KK and toku get a "warmonger respect" bonus and are already pleased at +1. Perhaps if KK is budhist and we have his favourite civic we can bribe him to cancel deals with Toku which will lead to hostilities.
Also, I notice that we don't have +1 for 'our trade relations have been fair' with KK.
Woudl gifting him a resource for 10 turns help (we have an spare gem)?

 

[mystyfly]

Finding a way to initiate Toku/Kublai hostilities would be ideal ...

I think this is just a matter of time - that doesn't mean that I'd stay away from a little bribe...

RE long-term diplo:
Jewish: Toku
Hindu: Izzy, KK
Buddhist: Rag, Just, us

Attacking Toku sometime won't cause diplo hits. Attacking KK: more likely, however only with Izzy, and isn't she the one who already got a little beating by ragnar (and is likely to get some more)? If we attack Just as well, that makes -1 with Izzy (no big deal) and -1 with Rag. The diplo hit with ragnar could be problematic, however we may be able to keep him busy.

Are we going for DOM again? This makes diplo less of an issue as we're safe until we go to the offense and then we don't really care anymore.

edit: X-Post...

More comments:

@silverbullet: I think we'll attack either with cannons/grens or cuirassiers (I've never done that but rusten says its good so it IS good ).

I don't think 2 extra spearmen or phalanx would give us as much safety as 2 missionaries, but I am not sure about it.

I'm not sure either; we can easily defend vs KK. With a fort there, his units will have a really hard time getting past there.

Unfortunately KK and toku get a "warmonger respect" bonus and are already pleased at +1. Perhaps if KK is budhist and we have his favourite civic we can bribe him to cancel deals with Toku which will lead to hostilities.

Warmonger respect is bad but rusten posted earlier that KKs fav civic is buero we'll be running anyway a long time. I think we'll be able to bribe him some time. Or toku "the mad" will DOW KK since he has no other way to expand.

 

[Rusten]

@silverbullet: I think we'll attack either with cannons/grens or cuirassiers (I've never done that but rusten says its good so it IS good ).

cannons/grens will be better than cuirassiers for this variant as we want chemistry as early as possible for better workshops.

Post-liberalism we can lightbulb printing press for trade bait and then work ourselves towards chemistry/military science/steel. Printing press is very high on the list of techs to lightbulb for a GS--it comes before chemistry so we're going to have to get it sooner or later.

We are mostly interested in the lower tech tree here anyway instead of military tradition and rifling. The lower tree has communism (essential for us early industrial period in order to grow and produce at the same time), biology (obvious), medicine (corporations later with enviromentalism and über windmills. This map is pangea-ish, so maintenance will be ok, we don't have to be in SP all game.

Or toku "the mad" will DOW KK since he has no other way to expand.

I'm pretty sure they have open borders, so when Toku decides to attack it's probably us.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Kublai has two Hindu cities, one Buddhist & the rest are no religion. It shouldn't be hard to flip him to Buddhism, but I don't think we're safe from attack even if he's Pleased, so we need a credible military in any case. Overall, I agree with the group consensus on how to proceed, but we should also try to get our hands on MC for the CS-boosted Workshops. Then we'll have more to play with. Not spectacular, but better than working Grassland Forests.

 

[silverbullet]

I'm pretty sure they have open borders, so when Toku decides to attack it's probably us.

They do have open borders.

I don't think we're safe from attack even if he's Pleased

I think it would be easier to bribe him at pleased. If he cancels deals with Toku, Toku will attack him.
I didn't think about Toku attacking us, but now that Rusten mentions it, I think our priority is to break the Toku-KK friendship. Let's plan on having a random event to do it for us

 

[ungy]

Ragnar circumnavigating is pretty scary, I'd hate to face those ships.

this solves the question I had about Ragnar's WB appearing from the NE when he appears to be in the other direction.
My experience when there is a pre-optics circumnav most likely the other two AI are reachable as well.
So I would say reaching them is a priority (not sure how to execute it) as the only dark spot I see in our game is that we don't have enough tech-trading partners--especially if we lose KK which is a risk.

 

[pigswill]

Thebes could switch from LH to WB or galley; we've got OB with Just and Raggy so head west from Thebes and see what happens.