Universal Suffrage Vs. Representation

Looking at the graphs I think you've been taking them from the Curious Cat city upkeep thread? There seems to be a fair amount of debate on their accuracy even in that thread, and the graphs predate the 1.52 patch anyway.

I don't think civic upkeep is purely a function of population. Take the comparison between the 9 city block and my 4 size 20 cities. The 9 city block has a population of 72, and a civic upkeep of 35gpt, the 4 large cities have a population of 80 and a civic upkeep of 28gpt. It looks like population is a major factor, but there must be something else as well judging from these numbers, so I threw it in to be on the safe side.
 
Civic upkeep depends on the type of civics that are used (no cost, low cost, medium cost, high cost), the number of cities in your empire and the total population of all your cities combined. It also depends on having an organized leader and the difficulty level.

City upkeep from number of cities depends on the number of cities, the map size and the rank of the city (when the city is the n-th closest to the capital, it has rank n). It also depends on the difficulty level.

City upkeep from distance depends on the distance to the capital, the map size and the population of the city. It also depends on the difficulty level.



Everyone in this thread is comparing these two civics in terms of research power. But the biggest power of universal suffrage is its ability to allow cash rushing. Cash rushing is extremely powerful (overpowered in my opinion).
 
rewster1 said:
Oh, good, another thread where we get to have the following discussion:
"Your strategy is suboptimal, specialists are crap."
"You forget the GPP from specialists."
"GP have diminishing returns. You only need one GP farm."
"But early on GP are great, and specialists are better than cottages."
"Yes but later towns own specialists by a factor of 2."
"But I will have killed you by then! GRRRR!"
"Only if you play a rush map."
"Chicken?"
etc....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Seems you were right :p
 
My apologies for the lateness of this reply; my home internet is down and so I finally went home over lunch and burned the appropriate files to a DVD to bring up here.

What we have here is a Monarch level game, Continents, Standard size, Standard speed with the only option change as "Disable Cheating". I will provide the initial save (View attachment 117282) so that others may take any approach they see fit and compare notes.

Some important points of contention:
- I am not claiming that this is the "best" strategy, or even that it is superior to any given strategy. I am claiming that this strategy is viable at the Monarch level.
- This strategy is not very deeply investigated. It could produce much better results under the eyes of many.
- In this game, I am "forcing the issue" -- ie I am going to use a specialist economy no matter what. In a real game one should never do this. Strategies are weapons, not universal solutions. You would no more likely bring a knife to a gun fight then you would use a shotgun for a quiet assassination. Choose which one you will use based on the map and how the early game plays out.
- MrCynical is right, Gato Loco's information is completely wrong in every fashion. I am sorry for not personally validating it. When I play, I generally don't do math but just "feel things out" -- all I knew was I never had significant financial issues. I had referred to Gato's thread yesterday to try to give a solid establishment of why I feel this tactic is economically feasible.

Okay, so on with the show. I am new to using attachments on this board (really, I'm just plain new to this board) so forgive me if I mess something up. Please indicate such and I will change it post haste. I can only upload 5 attachments, not nearly enough, so I am providing a Zip file with ordered screenshots such that you may peruse them. If someone can offer a better solution I will implement it immediatly.

EDIT: Crimeny. Okay, so I can only have a 500kb limit per zip AND only 5 files total. That means 1 file is the savegame, and 4 500kb zips for screens. There has got to be a less user frendly interface available for this board out there, but good luck finding it.

EDIT AGAIN: Okay. I give up on that zip idea. We get four screenshots so I'll just choose them exceptionally carefully. If someone can make a suggestion that will alow me to easily incorporate all 28 shots I would be forever in their debt. I will include the screenshot name (screenshot####) and if you are highly interested please PM me your eMail and I will mail you a zip with all the screens in it.

(ScreenShot0000)
We roll with Washington and start on the coast with a wheat square just below us and an inland lake just above us. I move down to the Plains Hill before settling. There are a lot of trees, which will be valuable. Immediately, we set the build to Worker and research Mining -> Bronze Working. Our Warrior going out scouting.

(ScreenShot0001)
Here, we've scouted a bit and finished mining. The worker came out of Washington and immediately began farming the bonus square while we waited on Bronze working. We have met Catherine to our east and, much more importantly, we have discovered stone in a desert area west of us. You can barely see it at the bottom middle of this shot. Finally, and very sadly, everything to our north is one massive jungle.

(ScreenShot0002)
We finish Bronze Working and chop out a settler, who heads off to settle near the stone. Note exactly a 5 square distance between the cities. We will fill in the gap later. Also, at this point I am hedging my bets. My first four cities will all be set in such a way that there is minimal overlap. This gives me the freedom to abort to another tactic with minimal damage. I don't plan to commit to the Specialist Cube until I feel assured I have Pyramids. New York starts Stonehenge to expand it's borders and get the stone and we aggressively chop it with one worker. Another worker (also chopped out) will continue chopping for Washington. I feel pretty strongly that Stonehenge is better then just an Obelisk, especially since we're an Industrious leader.

(ScreenShot0003)
We have Stonehenge. Work begins on the Pyramids. Washington chopped out another settler and is making mass Warriors at this point. We are positioning warriors around to reveal maximum space and minimize barbarians whom, in my experience, begin showing their heads at 2000BC. Also, we are going to try to corral Catherine with our Settler. We need to explore south, but can't afford to right now.

(ScreenShot0004)
We settle Boston to corral Catherine. Note that I am still placing cities in such a way that overlap is minimal in case Pyramids doesn't go.

(ScreenShot0005)
Philadelphia is founded in 2000BC. It is immediately ill from the jungle. Our workers are building a quarry and preparing to link stone. Also, we want minimal Husbandry to get those pigs that are in New York.

Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
Notice in this shot I have not yet committed to specialist base.

(ScreenShot0006)
The Pyramids progress well, we have Stone and Industrious trait with three forests to chop. I feel good enough about it and found Atlanta directly inside the radius of the Capital and to other cities. We are now committed to a Specialist based economy. Also, we have horses near Boston. Lucky us.

(ScreenShot0007)
We discover Iron right on top of our farm in Washington. Happy, but silly that it shows up on the only square we improved. Oh well, we mine it and switch Washington to build a barracks.

(ScreenShot0008)
In 950BC we build the Pyramids. We immediately go Representation. Also, we set our sights directly on Code of Laws. Code of Laws is like Gods gift to the Specialist economy. It has Caste System, which is vital because we won't build any buildings in a majority of our cities. It has Courthouses which is vital for obvious reasons. It has a religion if we're fast enough.

(ScreenShot0009)
A Priest is born in New York. We fortify him. It's 775 BC.

(ScreenShot0010)
Chicago, our 6th city, is built in 575 BC. It is overlapping as well. From now on out, they all will.

(ScreenShot0011)
We found Confucianism in 550 BC. It ends up in Boston, the absolute worst place it could go. Also, we've declared War on Catherine and are sending in some Axemen. We're just going to raze her lands randomly. This war started about 600BC.

(ScreenShot0012)
We build the Kung Mao in 500 BC.

(ScreenShot0013)
We build our 7th city, Seattle, in 275 BC.
Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

(ScreenShot0014)
One of our Axemen has accumulated 18 experience points running around in Catherine's lands and is now Woodsman 1, 2 Combat 1, 2. I nickname this guy "Seal Team 6". He goes around doing all sorts of cool covert ops and killing millions of Swordsmen. Also, we almost have Civil Service. This technology is the last medieval part of the puzzle, as irrigation is majorly important.

(ScreenShot0015)
I've been paying too much attention to Catherine and neglected expansion. San Francisco is founded in 500 AD. The war with Catherine has gone on for 1000 years so far. We have no unhappiness.

(ScreenShot0016)
780AD, Seal Team 6 makes level 6.

(ScreenShot0017)
We found Houston and Los Angeles in 820 AD. The primary cube is complete.
Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

(ScreenShot0018)
Our total expenses are 43 gpt.

(ScreenShot0019)
We begin razing Russian cities. We will leave their capital intact, but crush all others. Seal Team 6 leads the charge.

(ScreenShot0020)
Razing, razing, razing the Russians

(ScreenShot0021)
We found Portland, our 11th city.

(ScreenShot0022)
We found St. Louis, our 12th city.

(ScreenShot0023)
We found Miami, our 13th city.

(ScreenShot0027)
We are the first to discover Liberalism in 1370AD. We take Nationalism as our free tech to get to Democracy. This screenie is out of order because I tried to screenshot the list that says "You have discovered Liberalism! Choose a free tech!" but apparently that shot didn't save (?) Anyhow, I had to load from an autosave when I reviewed to get a tamer "Chris is the first to discover Liberalism" shot.

(ScreenShot0024)
Razing.

(ScreenShot0025)
The state of the empire when I went to bed.
Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG

(ScreenShot0026)
This empire costs 81 gpt. We are using Merchants and a founded religion to pay for it, primarily.

Will update tomorrow after I finish up the game tonight. Our immediate goals are Democracy -> Build Statue of Liberty (which says "gain 6 * nCities tech") then beeline to Biology for the +1 food. Biology is our version of Printing Press/Free Speech. It adds roughly 2 more scientists/city provided we can manage the unhealthiness. Also, we have been in a constant state of war from 600BC up to 1430AD with someone who shares our religion and have no unhappiness whatsoever anywhere. This is a nice bonus.


Chris Woods
 
I had a go at your Monarch game over the past hour or so, and I've now reached 1430 as well. I went for pure cottages as opposed to specialists for the comparison, and Washington is excellently suited to it. I'm slightly behind you in tech on the Nationalism-Democracy path, though I'm further ahead on the optics-astronomy branch, since I now have contact with the other civs, and most of the world mapped out. I also grabbed printing press much earlier to boost all my villages and towns. I've got about 20 odd towns now, and several villages close to becoming towns, so I'm beelining for Liberalism (I'm too late for the bonus, someone got to it in about 400AD!) and Democracy to grab universal sufferage and free speech. I'm a couple of techs behind the other civs, but I'm researching 50% faster (I was 8 techs behind when I met them). I didn't bother with warfare with catherine, since she was very easy to box in anyway.

Your specialist strategy does seem to have worked quite well, but I think the cottages work out better. I'll acknowledge that ICS is still at least partially viable (despite all the developers efforts to kill it), but I don't think it's a particularly strong strategy so I think I'll stick to cottages.
 
MrCynical said:
Your specialist strategy does seem to have worked quite well, but I think the cottages work out better. I'll acknowledge that ICS is still at least partially viable (despite all the developers efforts to kill it), but I don't think it's a particularly strong strategy so I think I'll stick to cottages.
Click to expand...

I concur that cottages works better in most cases, and most certainly I would expect it to out-preform on this map -- look at all that grassland!

Specialist based is useful when you are heavily cramped. When I was first dealing with small maps I would try to sprawl out and would result in very hybrid cities that were weak. I first started trying the cube approach based on that, and then extended it to larger maps and higher levels of play just as a curiosity. I think there is much more efficiency to mine from this approach - I certainly err'ed grievously when I went from 200BC to 500AD without any new cities - but I doubt it will outpace cottages in the general case. It's more a tool then a nuke.

Chris Woods
 
basically mine is also Specialists cities.... here is my save. and welcome any ideas ;)

Emperor Difficulty.
War with Montezuma (sigh...the other side of world) at ~1AD.
then Alexander joined at ~500AD...therefore i cease with Monte...
now JC the Praesssss joined the war....

still, it's only 1290 AD atm. but, first Cossack upgraded (from War Elephant)


** and i finished the map.. at 1920 AD, Domination. wiped Alexander, JC, Khan (stuck my way to monte, must die) and Montezuma.

in between, never stopped War mode between this 1900 years. =)
 
I run a Elizabeth Pyramids/Rep strat, but will build a few commercial/cottage spam cities at a later point if needed. Rushing to redcoats just gives you that much power. I'll regularly only use my GPs in my capital and one or two other cities, maybe using a GE to rush a wonder or two, and using a few GSes to build academies.
 
Representation vrs Universal Suffrage? If I get Pyramids (which I can usually get easily) I'll go for Representation. Representation is the best early government civic, imo, and since it can be powerful throughout the rest of the game it makes a lot of sense to form a strat around Representation.

I don't think that a Representation-based strat needs an overwhelmingly specialist-based economy at all. MrCynical, my strategy resembles yours much more than it does Chris Woods'. I have had 2 Great Person Farms from the classical age, adding on in the middle ages. I had three production cities. The rest of my cities (I had around 18 before my recent conquest of England, now I have around 30) focused on commerce, which meant cottages on evey available flood plain/grassland/plain.

Even so, having representation early encourages the use of specialists, which increases the out-put of great people. By the time Universal Suffrage comes about, its rather easy to end up with a city like this...



and an economy like this...



By the time my super-city is set up under Representation/Bureacracy (and producing 35% of my total science output), a switch to Universal Suffrage/Free Speech would be disastrous, as can be seen here...





Of course, I am only playing on Prince atm, but the results for this strat are promising. At 3973 points, my closest competitor is Alexander at 1921 points. I think I'm more than ready to try my strat out in Monarch games. :)


P.S. I'll be back later to figure out how to post pics directly. ^^

P.S. 2: Oops, I'll be back to resize.
 
That city sucks. Farms, mines and cottages in the same city? Haven't you ever heard of specialization?
 
Zombie69 said:
That city sucks. Farms, mines and cottages in the same city? Haven't you ever heard of specialization?
Click to expand...

Hehe! Talk about myopia. The city outputs almost 500 bpt. Yeah, that sucks!
 
It would have produced more with some more cottages instead of the farms, and windmills on the hills. But personally, i would have made it a production city and concentrated science somewhere else.
 
that city is an example of what my capitol usually looks like. not first in anything in the civ but a solid number two in everything.
 
All i'm saying is that's not a very efficient way to develop it. Specialize every city, including the capitol, and you'll notice how things get easier.
 
Well, I'm up to 1200 bpt with 0% science at this point and have wiped Catherine off the face of the globe. I've got something like 25-26 cities which is all that can be packed on this tiny island. With biology, I just draft three riflemen a turn and set production to buildings only.

If I had more room to sprawl out I would in an instant. Each new city costs 8gpt, but two free merchants = 6gpt + 6 beakers and the 2 free commerce on the settle site makes it 8gpt at 100% tax rate. From there, anything the city does is pure gravy.

With biology, on an all plains site I reach population 13. After health issues that's realistically only 11, so 3 more great people. Usually, cities are 2 merchants, 3 scientists for 15 beakers, 6 gpt. a settle. Then I just queue Library, University, Observatory and draft when appropriate. (EDIT: I queue Courthouse before Library)

Realistically, my cities are getting to population 14 because rarely is a site all plains. Comically, I actually prefer all plains sites because I end up with 10 production as well, but I'll take anything. Even all hills is fine with me since the city is free thanks to Mercantilism + Liberty, so beakers become gravy.

It seems like (no guarantees; I'll have to toy around more) that there is a plateau, or at least a long line, of #cities maintenance that suggests I could constantly be creating cities as fast as I can build settlers.

I'm going to try this on a Pangea map to see if I can really just go hardcore sprawl or if I hit a spot where it's just not feasible. I honestly thought just the continent I was on this game would tax me, but you seem to pass a threshold where it just doesn't matter anymore. I settled my last five cities all on the same turn after killing Cathy and the impact was trivial.

Great people start rolling in, but that's what happens when you have 100+ great people, even if they're strewn about the entire empire. I have been joining all my scientists to one city for entertainment purposes, and that place has passed 300 bpt sans Oxford. Not as much as a cottage city can reach, but this place is only 1x1.

Worker management is trivial. Hit F. If nothing happens, hit M. I, literally, have not built one single cottage.

Chris Woods
 
Hi Chris,

I think your GP results would be better if you apply this approach to a philosophical civ, then you can use the extra GP for super specialist, techs, shrine/academy/art work, or techs. I like to play to the strengths of each civ, which means I cottage spam for financial civs, and run loads of specialists for philosophical civs, for any others it is a judgement call on my part.
 
Lord Olleus said:
but how do you specialise a capitol? In the early game you need it for every thing so when should you specialise it?
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by early game. If you mean when you only have one city then i agree. As soon as i have 3 or 4 cities, the capital starts specializing in whatever the terrain allows best. If my empire needs something else, another city can provide for it.

The sooner you start specializing your capital, the sooner it can reach its full potential.
 
I think you're right about Philo, but I'm going with Rome because I want Expansive (Health does become an issue; Expansive = +1 Specialist/City in my eyes) and Organized (Anything that reduces cost is a good thing) Also, the Praetorians will allow me to eliminate my first neighbor easily and give me good room to start up the engine.

My goal is to coat the map with cities until I achieve Domination Victory. I'll raze any AI city I take as it will probably be designed using that silly "make a big city" principal. (Last line a tongue-in-cheek joke.)

Chris Woods
 
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