US allies do not know how to fight insurgents, says Gates

[C~G]

It matters a lot. In fact its all that matters in this case. Nice try to divert away from the true point.

Well, I cannot do anything if you really don't understand the true point.

And "you & your" in the previous post meant the thin skinned euros who are whining like babies because they couldn't take the truth like big boys. Grow some.

Yes, probably you say so, but thing is that US couldn't take the same treatment either coming from europeans.

So who is the thick skinned type? Nobody.

BTW, where are you getting diplomacy from? This was OUR defense secretary talking to OUR media, answering a direct question.

The whole foundation of your rantings is based on a frame of straw

Again, "straw"-accusation?
Come on...

There are certain "rules of engagement" when it comes to diplomacy. It is obvious he was making a comment about allies to your media perhaps it might have had kind of possible domestic politics twist in on it, don't you think?

That is complete failure in diplomatic level and nobody is going to listen to that. The point is that he shouldn't had been making such statement in any case. He could have well used different kind of wording for sure and still make the issue such that europeans would had understood it and accepted it as a fact.

The funny thing is the weak knees tight pants Euros quoted the British saying something far more inflamatory and accusing in this very thread and not a single American in this thread started running around with their hair on fire.

You mean "heavy handed"?
But you US guys love when they are portrayed as cowboys and using heavy handed tactics so of course it isn't insult towards you.

Would you like your troops called inadept by foreigners especially europeans?
I believe, the answer is big NO, just like in this case.

 

[skadistic]

The true point was that the euros aren't pulling their own weight in Afghanistan. The secondary point was that it was retracted after a bunch of euros whined about not be coddled. They simply couldn't take take being treated like big boys.

 

[skadistic]

1 - If you are begging for your allies to send more troops, insulting them is just stupid and counterproductive.

2 - The 95% of the world population outside of the US believes has made an astonishing mess of the counterinsergency in Iraq. Many Americans on this board have expressed the same view. As a Brit, having the US criticise our training on counterinsergengy is laughable.

3 - Remember the US reservists who took out the Household Cavalry recon tanks? When such an incident happens 100% because of the reservists lack of training, and then said reservists are promoted and placed in charge of training further reservists, the US criticising other nations lack of training is liable to give them the hump. Either that or we just laugh at the idiotic hipocrasy.


Having said all of that, some countries are letting the side down in Afghanistan.

1. Being told you aren't good enough isn't insulting.

2. This isn't about Iraq.

3. 100%? Are you sure? Please tell me what exact training reservists get, since you know. If it was 100% then all of them would be doing it right? Since they aren't trained according to you.

 

[Winner]

Which is exactly what he did.

Didn't sound like that.

Only if you are being a drama queen, which is what you are being.

Not really, I am more interested in diplomatic implications. Sure, we'd probably agree with each other that media love to blow things out of proportions, but that's a fact. Gates' remark, though somewhat justified, doesn't serve the US interest well.

We would be upset because it is 1.) false in that there are not high US casualties and 2.) we don't lack training or are generally low quality.

You think you don't. But more than anything, it would stir up emotions and the politicans would have to react to that.

Actually we just want you to fullfill the contract you signed, that little NATO thingy rememeber that. Iraq is totally irrelevant to Afghanistan, especially since being a NATO endevour we have been pulling far more weight than we should.

NATO doesn't oblige us to send troops, actually, even if the Article 5 is activated.

And again, yet another gross exaggeration and mischaracterization of the hysteria crowd Are the Czech SPs indicative of the quality of the Czech regular Army? I will be the first one to tell you all American units are not Ranger quality.

Please Euros, unbunch your panties and pretend you are capable of rational thought.

Oh please. I am the last one exaggerating it. I am just saying that a man in his position has to avoid saying anything that could be taken out of context and cause trouble.

 

[Winner]

And why was it retrcted? Was it because it wasn't true or because a bunch of thin skinned euros cried and pissed and moaned?

Thank God you're not in Gates place. If you were offered the job, please refuse it, because NATO would not survive a week with you in charge.

 

[Patroklos]

Thank God you're not in Gates place. If you were offered the job, please refuse it, because NATO would not survive a week with you in charge.

If NATO surviving is predicated on you guys weaseling out of your NATO obligations, how is that a bad thing?

 

[skadistic]

Thank God you're not in Gates place. If you were offered the job, please refuse it, because NATO would not survive a week with you in charge.

Why? Because I wouldn't stroke your weak egos and hold your hand? The man is not a diplomat. He is the 2nd in command of our military. Is europs self esteem so weak it can't handle blunt and direct criticism? Thats pretty sad.

Big bad meanie didn't tell me I was the bestest . Boo hoo.

 

[Winner]

If NATO surviving is predicated on you guys weaseling out of your NATO obligations, how is that a bad thing?

What are our NATO obligations, tell me?

Anyway, if you feel that way, OK. US+Canada can leave the alliance and we're settled. Let's burn bridges, especially now when the West faces new threats. Awesome.

 

[Winner]

Why? Because I wouldn't stroke your weak egos and hold your hand? The man is not a diplomat. He is the 2nd in command of our military. Is europs self esteem so weak it can't handle blunt and direct criticism? Thats pretty sad.

Big bad meanie didn't tell me I was the bestest . Boo hoo.

No, simply because you have no idea when to keep your mouth shut. Someone like you in such a high position, that would be a disaster.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

The British and Canadians are doing just fine. I mean, he is backpeddling now, but he WAS talking about the British, Canadians, and the Dutch. And it IS BS.

Though the worst part was that slimy ass-kissing Peter McKay of the Canadian Conservative Party who immediately started to apologize for Gates.

 

[skadistic]

No, simply because you have no idea when to keep your mouth shut. Someone like you in such a high position, that would be a disaster.

And when would be the right time to keep my mouth shut? When it might hurt your pride?

I'm such a meanie.

 

[Patroklos]

What are our NATO obligations, tell me?

To make available more than 1% of your troops to participate in the only active theatre the alliance is involved in maybe?

NATO is a great deal for the Euros. America gets attacked, America does 99% of the heavy lifting. Something happens that should have concerned the Euros (Kosovo), America does 99% of the heavy lifting. Honeslty, what are you guys good for as alliance members again?

Anyway, if you feel that way, OK. US+Canada can leave the alliance and we're settled. Let's burn bridges, especially now when the West faces new threats. Awesome.

America isn't the one doing the buring, you guys are the ones waffling.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

And yet, Gates insults the only allies who aren't waffling?

 

[skadistic]

And yet, Gates insults the only allies who aren't waffling?

So how exactly is being told you aren't the bestest insulting. I do it almost daily with my employees when they aren't pulling their weight. Is that insulting them? Come on.

 

[Winner]

And when would be the right time to keep my mouth shut? When it might hurt your pride?

I'm such a meanie.

No, but you're a moron if you don't understand the importance of tact in international relations.

It's especially funny since it was you Americans who invented political correctness. If one of your presidential candidates said "Those lazy black morons should do more work and less hip-hop if they want to have a better life!", he'd have exactly 0% chance of winning the elections.

Diplomacy is not about saying what you think in the most offensive way possible. It is about achieving harmony.

When you want to criticize, use different channels - NATO summits, NATO military commitees etc. These things are not handled in press.

 

[Mulholland]

What are our NATO obligations, tell me?

Anyway, if you feel that way, OK. US+Canada can leave the alliance and we're settled. Let's burn bridges, especially now when the West faces new threats. Awesome.

I agree Winner. The European forces aren't necessarily engaging in combat roles as much as other nations in Afghanistan, but there presence there is an indispensable. Taking cheap shots at anyone trying to help is not going to win any more support.

 

[C~G]

And when would be the right time to keep my mouth shut? When it might hurt your pride?

I'm such a meanie.

Well, it is the least you could to your fellow allies not to act like donkey towards them if you want them to do something for you.

But really, skadistic and Patroklos, what do you think Gates achieved with his original talk if he wouldn't had retracted from parts of it?

And no I'm not meaning "europeans to follow their obligations"...I mean what would you expect in reality happen?

That europeans would just say "My god, sir, you are right!" ?

The media isn't the court of law. You don't have to tell the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth so help me God.
(Truth being in this case something you think is the truth)

 

[skadistic]

No, but you're a moron if you don't understand the importance of tact in international relations.

It's especially funny since it was you Americans who invented political correctness. If one of your presidential candidates said "Those lazy black morons should do more work and less hip-hop if they want to have a better life!", he'd have exactly 0% chance of winning the elections.

Diplomacy is not about saying what you think in the most offensive way possible. It is about achieving harmony.

When you want to criticize, use different channels - NATO summits, NATO military commitees etc. These things are not handled in press.

Military leaders aren't diplomats. They don't have time to kiss your ass and tell you how special you are.

If you don't like being called out, man up[ and pull your weight. Or cry about it some more.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

So how exactly is being told you aren't the bestest insulting. I do it almost daily with my employees when they aren't pulling their weight. Is that insulting them? Come on.

Because it isn't true. The Canadian troops ARE as good as any at this... the problem is that there aren't ENOUGH troops, not that they aren't good at what they are doing. And, pound for pound, I would take the British with their experience in NI over the Americans for this type of operation.

If we want to frame it from a Canadian point of view, we could talk about the times our snipers (who hold all the records) saved American troops who were wandering into traps. What do we get in return? Incompetent American pilots dropping bombs on Canadian positions, killing and wounding our troops.

 

[Winner]

Military leaders aren't diplomats. They don't have time to kiss your ass and tell you how special you are.

If you don't like being called out, man up[ and pull your weight. Or cry about it some more.

Gates is a top US government official, not a general in the field. If he can't adjust to that, he shouldn't do that.

But judging from your "badass" comments, I am wasting my time with you.