US may be facing its own F-16's in combat against Pakistan

Just in case anyone thinks equal airframes means equal ability, there are really 4 factors: 1) The aircraft itself 2) the electronics suite (including missiles) that the aircraft is equipped with 3) the skill and training of the pilots and other aircrew, and 4) the quality of the ground crews that keep the machine in top working order.

Not many nations match the US in all of those, even when we sell them the hardware.
 
Cheezy....we have learned a bit since Vietnam.

In what regard?

The tech gap surrounding this kind of thing is much wider than it was then. It would largely be a replay of Iraq where our airpower was able to destroy their entire SAM capability within a few days. Simply, if it gets turned on, it dies. Thats about it.

The Iraqi equipment was in the desert. The entire northern and western border of Pakistan is mountains. I'm not saying we'd get slaughered, I'm saying it's not worth the cost. Again, remember what happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan. A man on a hillside with a missile is much more powerful and hard to kill than the gunship he's firing at.

Actually, yes, we can.

And do what with it? Sooner or later we're going to have to hit the ground, after all, we'd be fighting them to get the right to attack terrorists there.

By very few if any. AEGIS might be able to do it, but anything else would have to be extremely close.

Remember how the Serbs did it. It can be done, its just a matter of planning, timing, and luck.
 
Remember how the Serbs did it. It can be done, its just a matter of planning, timing, and luck.

A lot of luck, and if IIRC, it was against a F117. Which is less capable and less stealthy than a B2.

That's not to say it can't be done, but it can't be done reliably.
 
In what regard?

Tactics and training for starters. The development of stealth tech to defeat SAM batteries. Priority of targeting SAM batteries to the exclusion of all else at the beginning of a air campaign. Airframe countermeasures. Satellite data to pinpoint locations of stationary SAM batteries. And even more that I cant exactly recall in a moments notice.

The Iraqi equipment was in the desert. The entire northern and western border of Pakistan is mountains.

Makes no real difference for a couple of reasons. We arent talking about helicopters crossing the border here, but stealth capable aircraft, most likely at night. Those valleys will inhibit a SAM batteries field of fire as well, but a radar emission signature will most certainly be easy to detect. They have to go 'active' in order to even have a chance at detecting a stealth capable plane. Once they do, their survivability rate is going to be measured in a matter of minutes.

Thats provided we havent spotted them from sats from orbit and pinpointed their position. If thats the case, they wont even live to go active on their radar.

I'm not saying we'd get slaughered, I'm saying it's not worth the cost. Again, remember what happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan. A man on a hillside with a missile is much more powerful and hard to kill than the gunship he's firing at.

We wouldnt be sending helicopters in there. It would all be stealth aircraft, or predators with hellfires.

Again, we have a much better capability than the soviets did. And a guy with a shoulder launched SAM isnt going to be taking down a jet fighter/bomber.

And do what with it? Sooner or later we're going to have to hit the ground, after all, we'd be fighting them to get the right to attack terrorists there.

We dont hit the ground until we have air superiority, and a reasonable chance of success of a cross-border mission. I worked in an Army Aviation Brigade and have taken part of the target aquisition process, and corridor prep prior to the mission. The bottom line is we are very good at doing this type of thing and have a lot of experience at it. If we want to do it bad enough, the pakis cant stop us from doing it. Ultimately, its up to them if they want to play with us, or play with the terrorists, but we are only going to patient with them for so long in regards to terrorists being harbored/aided cross border.

Remember how the Serbs did it. It can be done, its just a matter of planning, timing, and luck.

Serbs took advantage of some oversights on our part there. One, the F-117 at that time had no radar warning indicator light to tell the pilot he was being targeted....a deficiency that has most likely been fixed I assure you. Secondly, mission planners had relied upon the stealth tech too much and had gotten into the habit of using the same flight paths for multiple missions. This allowed the Serbs to predict where the aircraft would be and allowed them to use night vision goggles to first acquire the aircraft prior to firing upon it. These days our aircraft operate at much higher altitudes to avoid such visual targeting systems and we are also mandated to vary mission flight paths to avoid what happened in Kosovo.

You see, Cheesy, the pakis would have to take advantage of something we have overseen and not learned over the last decade or so. And if they did, just like the Serbs did, we would learn from our mistakes and put measures in place to rectify the shortfall.
 
I dont think its the wrong thing to do to hold Pakistan to their word.

If they are going to be serious about defeating the Taliban then do it.

If not, dont be surprised if we decide to take matters into our own hands. History is rife with examples where nations got their butts into a crack for aiding and abetting terrorist to operate from within their borders. Pakistan shouldnt be treated any differently.

That about covers my opinion on the matter.
 
The U.S. has a rich history of Allies turning into enemies. They sent supplies to their W.W.2 Ally the USSR, which became their biggest enemy in history.
They supplied Iraq with weapons during the Iraq-Iran war and they supported Bin Laden in his fight with the USSR in Afghanistan.

The U.S. must be more careful who to support.
 
The U.S. has a rich history of Allies turning into enemies. They sent supplies to their W.W.2 Ally the USSR, which became their biggest enemy in history.
They supplied Iraq with weapons during the Iraq-Iran war and they supported Bin Laden in his fight with the USSR in Afghanistan.

The U.S. must be more careful who to support.

The US has picked many sucky allies. That's because we have been constantly willing to back fascists for short term advantage.
 
Mig 29s kicked the crap out of F-16s until Americans got around to implementing the helmet tracking system thing the Migs came with.

I am trying to think of any instance of a MIG29 victory over an F16, and can't come up with one. MIG 29s have been totally pawned any time they have come up against Western aircraft. Granted, the pilots flying them usually sucked, but all practical experiance points to your comment coming out of your anus.

you want to play the wild weasel game, but we saw how well that turned out in Vietnam.

Yes, enormously successful.

By very few if any. AEGIS might be able to do it, but anything else would have to be extremely close.

Aegis (the SPY-1D phased array specifically) can't track a B2. It could probably pick up a F-22 at close range, as could the newer scanning radar of an S-400, but in all honestly given the altitude and speeds the F-22 operates at being a figher and not a strike aircraft, that doesn't mean much.

The Iraqi equipment was in the desert. The entire northern and western border of Pakistan is mountains. I'm not saying we'd get slaughered, I'm saying it's not worth the cost. Again, remember what happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan. A man on a hillside with a missile is much more powerful and hard to kill than the gunship he's firing at.

I think you have a misunderstanding of what air superiority means. All your ground warfare comments are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Remember how the Serbs did it. It can be done, its just a matter of planning, timing, and luck.

That was an F-117 (which is now retired), and the tech of the B2/F-22 is not only entirely different but far more advanced.
 
The only thing that could possibly lock onto an F-22 from a distance is short-wave radar. Which is very unstable, and considering the speed and the size of the F-22 they would have less than 1/4th of a second to fire, even then the F-22 could easily deploy counter-measures before the missile was even within 5000 ft of the F-22.
Normal radar guided missiles from the F-16 would not be able to lock onto the F-22s if they even got into a close-end dogfight. As I said before the F-22s could take them out from over 5 miles away. The only thing from an F-16 that could lock onto an F-22 is a heat seeking missile locking onto the afterburners. Also known as Fox Two missiles. Fox Ones and Fox Threes(radar guided) would not be able to lock onto the F-22.
However the F-22's long range Fox Threes could lock onto, and destroy the F-16s from as I said over 5 miles away.
The poor F-16's wouldnt even get a missile lock warning until the missiles were within 1000ft. By then it is too late. lol
 
No matter how many F-16s does Pakistan have, I am pretty sure India would blow them out of the sky in a matter of days in an all-out war.
 
It will be a contest of who can shoot down more F-16s, America or India. lol
 
In all honesty, the quality of Pakistan's aircraft is irrelevant. The US alone (and lets face it, they won't be alone) has thousands of combat airframes available, Pakistan a couple hundred.
 
they arent going to go to war. If they did the US would annihilate them but if India got involved it could mean catastrophe
 
How many can the US deploy in Afghanistan?

As many as will physically fit in the fields around Bagram. And on a few carrieres. Hell, our bombers can fly in from Diego Garcia/Guam/Missouri if we need them to. Hell, the carriers alone could do the job.
 
An F-22 can fly from California to Pakistan, then land in a base in Germany or vice versa.
 
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