[UXP] Legends of Revolutions

[FriendoftheDork]

It is intended that you need Armor, Air power, or Overwhelming odds to conquer land from a player with MGs. It's not hard to get those early tanks, or even early bombers, they are only slightly out of the way in the tech tree; and that's a deveation you're going to have to make if you intend on seiging cities defended by MGs.

Yes, well even at 50% they are a challenge - since they're already defending they probably get that bonuses straight to strength, giving them effectively str 24 vs Squad Infantry's 18 str - not counting any city defender or drill promos. That's already very poor odds. With 100% that is str 32 which is pretty much like mechanized infantry... and this for a unit that is the cheaper than the appropriate units. Even Marines with their bonus vs Machinegun actually comes off much weaker since the attacker doesen't get the bonus % but rather halves the machinegun's bonus - thus str 24 vs str 24 (and that's supposed to be a counter?). A city defended with Machineguns and squad inf or worse, AT units of some kind will also quite easily defend against tanks since the best unit is chosen for defense.

And.. even if historically correct that WW1 infantry had almost no chance of taking on reinforced enemy machineguns, for game balance a unit should not both have 100% against the unit it's supposed to counter AND has almost as high strength as it. It would be like having Pikement with str 10 - after all pikemen combined with muskets almost spelt the end of the knight. Also, the AI loves machinguns and some even get at the time they get riflemen - riflemen against machineguns is just ridiculous. Now one great army against another composed of squad inf and machineguns with arty support... the defender has a major advantage.

Anyone else commented on this before? I could be wrong but although I like MGs even in vanilla these may be a tad too powerful compared to cost and when they become available.


PS what about question 2? Thought about it?

 

[bestbrian]

I dunno; I'm of two minds on this. Yes, I thought it was fun to cruise around with transports of Marines in BTS and raze AI cities on a whim, and I was quite disconcerted to discover that my Marines were sucking eggs vs AI MGs in my last LoR game. However, extra airpower (Supercarriers are MONSTERS!), more naval bombardment, etc, and the gods of collateral do their job. The lesson: build more siege/airpower.

 

[killmeplease]

maybe 75% vs gunpowder would be ok?

 

[phungus420]

PS what about question 2? Thought about it?

I disagree. Adding some unit in between musketmen and grenadiers/rifles would just make things crowded, and make the musketman useless. I like the Unit progression in LoR, everything has a purpose and every unit has some upgrade just around the corner you want to get, but need other things. It keeps things active with lots of options for the player without overcrowding or useless filler items that are in most comprable mods. There is a minor tweak to unit progressions planned though, you can check that out in the Development Thread but this will not be implemented for quite some time, probably a couple of months.

As far as the discussion with MGs go, feel free to keep talking about it, it's good for me to get feedback from users about the mod, I don't feel like there is enough really, and most of my changes come from tweaks I feel are needed from watching AI v AI games on autoplay. However I will again reemphasize that it intended that you need airpower, overwhelming odds, or armor to take out MG defended cities easily. Your point about AT infantry doesn't apply either because ATs in LoR aren't available until rocketry, that's way later then Armor becomes available, and by that time you should have plenty of other avenues available. I'd wager if anything is OP it's Armor, as it doesn't have a counter until well into the modern era, yet if you gun for them you can get them in the Industrial era.

 

[FriendoftheDork]

I dunno; I'm of two minds on this. Yes, I thought it was fun to cruise around with transports of Marines in BTS and raze AI cities on a whim, and I was quite disconcerted to discover that my Marines were sucking eggs vs AI MGs in my last LoR game. However, extra airpower (Supercarriers are MONSTERS!), more naval bombardment, etc, and the gods of collateral do their job. The lesson: build more siege/airpower.

Yeah with enough tech advantage of course you can take on machineguns fairly easily. However, the AI seems to have no chance at all against them.

Also, the way I see it, machineguns represent the old machinegun units from WW1, while the Squad Inf and better represents squads armed with rifles, light machineguns etc. as they were in WW2. Although dangerous, squads of infantry did manage to take out machinegun emplacements using supressive fire, grenades etc and tactics, so I don't think it's so bad that Marines, a more expensive unit, has a chance of taking out a machinegun if everything else is equal (I.E not getting defensive bonuses from city or terrain or at the very least being fortified.

My main concern is anyway that these units are balanced.. maybe 75% is better, I don't know. Maybe if it was tested in multiplayer human vs human?

 

[morchuflex]

Hello.

This mod gets better every time and I haven't played vanilla BTS ever since I found it. So far, 0.98c plays smoothly on my computer.

A few comments:
- I find the barb nomad overpowered. A 3 str, 2 move enemy by 2500 BC, that's tough. They wipe out my scouts and fogbusters.

- This is a BUG feature, but still... The production decay warning doesn't take game speed under consideration. On Epic, you have 15 turns, not 10, before a unit "frozen" in the build queue starts to decay. But you get the warning "will lose one Hammer this turn" after only 10 turns.

 

[Snofru1]

I like the strong MGs, keep them as they are. Hey, they are defend-only units and so it´s fine if they do the one thing they can extremely well.

 

[Keipher]

Decent bombarding, bombing, tanks, and the disadvantage of not being able to use them to attack definitely help balance their awesome defense. And unless you have a dumb/overly aggresive neighbor, it's very hard to collect promotion XPs for them.
I also strongly agree with Phungus on the musketmen to grenadiers/rifles. With all LoR's new techs, buildings, and units, my games already take much longer than standard BTS, but I rarely reach past MGs unless I purposely delay my game. I think the balance is great as it is, if not on the heavy side. But things might change when I begin challenging a harder level.
Regardless, I love this mod!

 

[bestbrian]

Yeah with enough tech advantage of course you can take on machineguns fairly easily. However, the AI seems to have no chance at all against them.

Also, the way I see it, machineguns represent the old machinegun units from WW1, while the Squad Inf and better represents squads armed with rifles, light machineguns etc. as they were in WW2. Although dangerous, squads of infantry did manage to take out machinegun emplacements using supressive fire, grenades etc and tactics, so I don't think it's so bad that Marines, a more expensive unit, has a chance of taking out a machinegun if everything else is equal (I.E not getting defensive bonuses from city or terrain or at the very least being fortified.

My main concern is anyway that these units are balanced.. maybe 75% is better, I don't know. Maybe if it was tested in multiplayer human vs human?

See, I never think of units as just representing what it says, but all the crap of the same era that went with it. I don't think of the MG as just representing a MG Nest, or even a pillbox, but a series of advanced fortifications with interlocking fields of fire, akin to the perfected field fortifications of WWI or even The Maginot Line. Your unsupported infantry is going to spend alot of time beating themselves against that, even with plenty of artillery (a la WWI), but Tanks, Air, and Infiltration makes things alot easier. It's a pretty good representation of the era. My problem is with the AI; it really just doesn't adjust to building enough counter units to get through Human MGs, and I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about that until BetterAI is further perfected.

Also, Tanks have an earlier counter than AT in LoR: the AA gun - works like a charm (and something I've NEVER seen the AI build one of).

 

[FriendoftheDork]

See, I never think of units as just representing what it says, but all the crap of the same era that went with it. I don't think of the MG as just representing a MG Nest, or even a pillbox, but a series of advanced fortifications with interlocking fields of fire, akin to the perfected field fortifications of WWI or even The Maginot Line. Your unsupported infantry is going to spend alot of time beating themselves against that, even with plenty of artillery (a la WWI), but Tanks, Air, and Infiltration makes things alot easier. It's a pretty good representation of the era. My problem is with the AI; it really just doesn't adjust to building enough counter units to get through Human MGs, and I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about that until BetterAI is further perfected.

Also, Tanks have an earlier counter than AT in LoR: the AA gun - works like a charm (and something I've NEVER seen the AI build one of).

Yes somewhat agree, except fortify option is what creates those trenches and hidden MG bunkers. Well that and terrain bonuses, and of course city defense bonus. Together, they should make infantry attack pretty much impossible. Now however, infantry attack on level terrain, even with very experienced infantry (level 4 or better), with the Infiltration promotion has still no real chance of winning against that MG. Also the AI use them offensively as well - one mg, a bunch of artillery and some cav and infantry makes a good offensive stack. Without that MG I could easily counterattack it.

For cities with MGs and AA guns I's suppose you'd NEED airpower to have a chance. With combined attack of air, arty, tanks, no city can stand.

In any case, it's not that long time before can take on the MGs, it's just annoying how the AI beelines it and gets 1-3 MGs per city in the same round they aquire the tech.

Anyway Phungus: What's the numbers to the left of the year number on the right top of the screen? It changes between a percentage and some x/xxxx number. Turns and % of game left?

 

[-R10T-]

have you ever thought about adding francisco franco?
if hitlers there i dont see why franco shouldnt..

 

[bestbrian]

have you ever thought about adding francisco franco?
if hitlers there i dont see why franco shouldnt..

Because he's even less historically relevant than Beni "The Douche" Mussolini?

Heck, even if there was a need to add another Spanish leader he'd still be way down the depth chart with Ryan Leaf.

Incidentally, Frankie was known affectionately in my home growing up as "That Creep That Tried to Have Grandpa Assassinated", and whose portrait proudly hung on the dart board in the basement.

 

[The Capo]

Charles V (Carlos I in Spain) or Philip II would be better than Franco if you were going to add one more Spanish leader.

 

[Vortilex]

Because he's even less historically relevant than Beni "The Douche" Mussolini?

Heck, even if there was a need to add another Spanish leader he'd still be way down the depth chart with Ryan Leaf.

Incidentally, Frankie was known affectionately in my home growing up as "That Creep That Tried to Have Grandpa Assassinated", and whose portrait proudly hung on the dart board in the basement.

That's what it was like at my friend's house, except with G.W. Bush!

 

[bestbrian]

That's what it was like at my friend's house, except with G.W. Bush!

Except that Dubya never sent a hit team to a third country to put the whack on your friend and his family. In any event, we're straying into waaaaay o/t territory.

 

[FriendoftheDork]

To get back to topic I have another LoR question:

Bombardment doesen't seem to work as good as in vanilla (regular type, not ranged one). Wooden gunships, cannons, artillery... they all seem to do alot less bombardment damage than they're supposed to do. What's the deal here? Usually, with my artillery I can reduce maybe 10% at most per unit.

 

[bestbrian]

To get back to topic I have another LoR question:

Bombardment doesen't seem to work as good as in vanilla (regular type, not ranged one). Wooden gunships, cannons, artillery... they all seem to do alot less bombardment damage than they're supposed to do. What's the deal here? Usually, with my artillery I can reduce maybe 10% at most per unit.

I seem to recall that collateral was nerfed a bit in LoR to force diversification in stack composition.

 

[phungus420]

No, that never went through. The bombardment effects against city defenses, and collateral are the same as BtS. The reduced damage may be because castles are moved back, and so more cities have castles, which half bombardment rates (again straight BtS). I haven't messed with any of the numbers involved here. I probably will make some collateral tweaks with 0.9.9, but that's a couple months off yet. What FriendoftheDork is asking about must just be due to subjective perception, there is no game play change that I know of that should be reducing bombardment.

 

[FriendoftheDork]

No, that never went through. The bombardment effects against city defenses, and collateral are the same as BtS. The reduced damage may be because castles are moved back, and so more cities have castles, which half bombardment rates (again straight BtS). I haven't messed with any of the numbers involved here. I probably will make some collateral tweaks with 0.9.9, but that's a couple months off yet. What FriendoftheDork is asking about must just be due to subjective perception, there is no game play change that I know of that should be reducing bombardment.

I don't know how subjective reading a number on the screen is. Unless the game is lying, bombardment doesen't give the full value as listed on the units.

Castles in BTS is only supposed to work against non-gunpowder units, which is clearly not the case when I play the WWWolf scenario. And I don't think a scenario alone can make such a change.

I seem to recall when playing BTS, that trebuches and earlier were rather poor against cities with castles, while cannons and better rocked. In Wolfshanze mod I noticed by frigates etc also seem to be affected by castles, while cannon and arty were not.

 

[bestbrian]

I don't know how subjective reading a number on the screen is. Unless the game is lying, bombardment doesen't give the full value as listed on the units.

Castles in BTS is only supposed to work against non-gunpowder units, which is clearly not the case when I play the WWWolf scenario. And I don't think a scenario alone can make such a change.

I seem to recall when playing BTS, that trebuches and earlier were rather poor against cities with castles, while cannons and better rocked. In Wolfshanze mod I noticed by frigates etc also seem to be affected by castles, while cannon and arty were not.

Now, I know what you're referring to. You mean that your Siege Weapon should knock off, say 8% of a city's cultural defense, and instead knocks off some lesser number; correct?