Very quick noob SG

[GreyFox]

Expansion:
Western Jungle island or Northern Wasteland? I think cities in either location would be about the same distance from the capital so no diff there. Going West would deny JC those sites, and that's not a bad thing. Going North would provide more resources including a whale in the far, far north. West would require a lot of jungle chopping to combat the unhealthy nature, but our expansive trait helps with that. North means some massive roading and minimal growth. I'm not really sure which will help us more.

I say we ignore settling for the moment and conitnue our push for circumnavigation. We can settle them once we have state property.

1) Exploration. We still haven't even sailed around our entire contient! Capturing Paris gives us an eastern port, lets use it asap and find out what the close world looks like.

I doubt its useful. The ocean tiles at the east coast are all revealed, no nearby landmass AFAICR. Let's concentrate on getting Optics, once there, start building caravel in Paris and our western most city (whatsthename? ). one will move east, the other move west. Should net us the circumnavigation real soon.

2) General Worker Progress. Hurrian still isn't connected via roads with our empire... wassup wit dat? Lets get workers clearing jungles/hooking up the calender improvements (Sugar and Spices for now).

eektor is right, Hurrian is connected.
I have also started to build a road accross the jungle for better access.

About our Great Prophet (woot!), if he can give us Divine Right... then I'd say take it and get the Spiral Minaret working. It will really help our GNP. I'm not sure what else he would research towards, but if its sub-optimal then the christian shrine is a much lesser alternative to improve our economy - we'd have to spread chrstianity to many of cities to get any real effect tho.

Great minds think alike . We don't really have use for christainity and islam. Require building tons of missionaries to be useful (we are in OR, so they will not spread on their own). Coupled with the limit of 3 missionary at one time, its a colossal pain in the a$$ to spread them. Let's concentrate on Buddhism.

On the same note, we have two SE cities yet to have buddhism.... hmm, i was wrong, buddhism did not spread itself to these cities soon . I have built 1 or 2 missionaries. You can use them for spreading buddhism and let them enjoy the OR benefit.

Oh, yeah, there is also a muslim missionary (comes free with founding Islam) sitting in Hurrian idling.

I agree with your points, bobrath. I didn't go around the continent because we had no OB with JC and I somehow got the idea that you guys didn't want to have OB with JC. Without OB there wasn't a way around the Romans to explore the other side of the continent.

As above, I don't think OB with JC will help the exploration. During my turnset, JC come pleading for OB again, and I shoved his salads right back to where they belong.

 

[oldbustedjorn]

Good builder turns Greyfox -> we are doing great...

I can't wait for caravels so that we can meet other civs! Hopefully we can do some trading and put JC out of his misery. I was thinking though, we already can build macemen, so lets look at getting guilds and fuedal so that we have a fully medievel force to take JC down with.

 

[Maquis]

Good turns GreyFox! Nice to see our infra getting back in order.

One thing that still annoys me, there seem to be NO horses anywhere. I don't want to have to waste our UU (when we get Guilds) Once we get on the ocean, hopefully we can find some out there somewhere. Preferably, we could trade for some once we meet some AI. We have plenty of resources to trade. I would love to have Conquistadors available to take out Loius and put the on JC!

 

[bobrath]

There isn't a screenshot that shows it, but I connected Hurrian to the other cities with roads. I completed 2 plantations that I remember so spices or sugar or both are hooked up (I forgot which one though).

I agree with your points, bobrath. I didn't go around the continent because we had no OB with JC and I somehow got the idea that you guys didn't want to have OB with JC. Without OB there wasn't a way around the Romans to explore the other side of the continent.

Good to hear. Didn't doubt your abilities, but i wanted to make suer to type it out so I don't feel totally useless!

Now on to reading GreyFox's turnset (he must have it on his comp at work - lucky sod!)

 

[bobrath]

And I'm done with the reading! Only thing about the autologger is to make sure you put down some of your why and thoughts along the way. Its nice to know what was built/seen/happened, but us humans like a story every once in a while too. Plus it makes it easier for me to guess what you're up to!

The only compelling reasons for settling at this point are to hook up resources we don't have or to deny locations to JC to make sure he doesn't grow too much.


I'm going to make sure our Caravels (when I build them) both have missionaries or explorers on them. Prolly missionaries. No reason to pass up a chance to spread the faith.

BTW, I don't think OR restricts non-state religion spread only theocracy does that...

As far as Hereditary Rule vs Representation: HR is medium upkeep and gives +1 per unit while Rep is low upkeep and gives +3 in top 5 cities (plus a bonus to research per specialist). Unless we're running into some major unhappy problems in our southern cities... I don't see HR as the best civic for us. Rep will help our GNP and iour research (I think!). JC likes Representation a lot so we'll gain bonus relatino points from adopting it. Any input?

So Open Borders with JC... Aside from keeping his rogue city south of Hurrian somewhat isolated, what is the downside for us? Sure he might plug some cities into our center and north, but JC is not creative (exp and org), so we'd have the culture lead on any of them. Wouldn't that potentially weaken him for a while as the expansion costs and corruption kick in? Plus with open borders we'd pick up some trade routes and that would improve our economy a bit as well. Thoughts on this?

This can serve as my got it, but I won't be playing until later tonight. Plenty of time for the group to come up with a plan for me to follow.

JC founded that "throwaway" city by paris to get ivory... He can now build War Elephants... That's not a good thing. I'm for sure going to put as much cultural pressure on that city as I can.

 

[eektor]

My thoughts are to agree to an open border with JC. If they happen to settle north of us. The cities would be far away and easy to take from them when the opportunity arises. Also, the extra commerce from trade routes would be nice.

HR vs Rep. I don't usually go Rep probably because I tend not to make too many specialists so it wouldn't make too much of a difference and I try to get Universal Suffrage quickly, but since Rep is JC's favorite civics and I don't think we have any towns up right now that is probably the way to go.

Oh I forgot to say ... Nice job GreyFox!

 

[GreyFox]

Now on to reading GreyFox's turnset (he must have it on his comp at work - lucky sod!)

Nope, not so lucky ... I am on the other side of the world (Singapore), so its actually my night time when you see those turnset posted ... (though I could install Civ4 on my computer at work, but its a hassle to bring the Civ4 DVD around)

And I'm done with the reading! Only thing about the autologger is to make sure you put down some of your why and thoughts along the way. Its nice to know what was built/seen/happened, but us humans like a story every once in a while too. Plus it makes it easier for me to guess what you're up to!

AH... I thought I did, but re-reading my post ... it seems there isn't enough. Will take note of it, and strive to add some spice to my reporting!

BTW, I don't think OR restricts non-state religion spread only theocracy does that...

Opps ... another slip

I don't see HR as the best civic for us. Rep will help our GNP and iour research (I think!). JC likes Representation a lot so we'll gain bonus relatino points from adopting it. Any input?

Agree ... and I remember I changed civics to representation during my turnset. Another miss from my report. Surpise the autolog did not reflect change of civis. Sorry guys, too engross in the game to take note of things.

ABout OB with JC, I have no real for or against it. Anyway, I don't think JC will try his luck with attacking us for at least the next few hundreds of years. He is not Monty-crazy. It is the french he will go for first. When he declare war on Louis, then we have to watch out for his agression to us. Otherwise, so long as we keep our armies up (maintain at #1 position in power), he will not attack us when there is a far more easier target.

Having said that, OB with JC really do gives us the benefit of increased trade route. So, if you want to go for it, do that. (just don't eat his salads, it has been spat on, shoved up some unspeakable places, and all that )


One thing I miss in my after-turns notes is the research path. Optics is 5 turns away, thereafter we could go for:

(1) Literature
It is not a mandatory requisite for other techs, so reason for learning this is only for the Great Library.

(2) Engineering
for the extra road movement, and also opens the door to chemistry (albeit very far away) We have no use for pikeman for now.

(3) Feudalism
for the longbowman. It will render JC's praets useless.
Also it opens up guild for our UU ... only catch is we have no horse
seriously, guild allows banking, could help to further boost our economy.

(4) Paper
opens the door to the important techs like Education and Printing Press.

(5) Philosophy
for taoism ... Huh, another head for hydra? Is GreyFox crazy?
Not really, the reason is not for taosim, but couple with paper, this route leads us to the Liberalism tech ... another free tech!!!

 

[bobrath]

Apologies. In writing up my turn, I inadvertently hit enter and ended up taking an 11th turn. Can you forgive my fat fingers??

Turn 177 (1170 AD)
Madrid's borders expand
Madrid finishes: The Hanging Gardens
Paris finishes: Granary

Turn 178 (1180 AD)
Madrid begins: The Spiral Minaret
Paris begins: Forbidden Palace
User comment: library in Toledo as it cost only 2 pop. (HG affect was a wash on health here)
User comment: Open borders with JC. He has literature now!
Islam has spread: Toledo
User comment: sent Islamic missionary to Toledo to help culture push.
Barcelona finishes: Harbor
Cordoba finishes: War Elephant
Hurrian finishes: Barracks
Toledo finishes: Library
Rheims finishes: Library
Santiago grows: 3
Santiago's borders expand
Islam has spread: Pisae (Roman Empire)
User comment: Well, that's nice. No Shrine to benefit from it tho.

Turn 179 (1190 AD)
Barcelona begins: Buddhist Missionary
Cordoba begins: Harbor
Toledo begins: Harbor
Rheims begins: Forge
Hurrian begins: Library
Buddhism has spread: Hurrian
User comment: MM Madrid to cut 3 turns off Spiral Build
Cordoba grows: 12
Toledo grows: 11
Toledo finishes: Harbor

Turn 180 (1200 AD)
Toledo begins: Islamic Temple
Tech learned: Optics
Barcelona finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Cordoba finishes: Harbor

Turn 181 (1210 AD)
Research begun: Feudalism
Barcelona begins: Buddhist Missionary
Cordoba begins: Caravel
Paris begins: Caravel
User comment: switched of FP build in Paris to get a caravel out
Seville finishes: Colosseum
Hurrian grows: 12
Hurrian finishes: Library
Rheims grows: 8
Paris grows: 9

Turn 182 (1220 AD)
Seville begins: Buddhist Temple
Hurrian begins: Buddhist Temple
User comment: JC just ended a golden age...
Axeman defeats (4.15/5): Barbarian Swordsman
User comment: Heroic Northern Axes remove the Barb Blight

Barcelona grows: 12
Barcelona finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Cordoba finishes: Caravel
Toledo grows: 12
Toledo finishes: Islamic Temple
Santiago finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 183 (1230 AD)
Cordoba begins: Caravel
Toledo begins: Aqueduct
Santiago begins: Granary
Barcelona begins: Work Boat
User comment: Border spotted already!!

User comment: Remember with Optics we get an extra sight line so have our older boats "reexplore"
User comment: Looks like Louis wants to let us Raze some more soon

User comment: out the caravel in Paris - combats unhappy and gets us sailing sooner
Barcelona finishes: Work Boat
Seville finishes: Buddhist Temple
Hurrian finishes: Buddhist Temple
Paris finishes: Caravel

Turn 184 (1240 AD)
Barcelona begins: Explorer
Seville begins: Buddhist Missionary
Hurrian begins: Harbor
User comment: Sailing East without explorer or missionary. Wanted to make sure get best chance at circum.
Contact made: Japanese Empire
User comment: Traded Poly for a little gold to Tokugowa just wanted to improve relations.. Prolly never get OB tho

Turn 185 (1250 AD)
User comment: MM Paris to go stagnant in order to speed up palace. Can grow one more before being even on unhappy
User comment: Once the unhappy wears off in Paris we can safely grow again (but FP should be done soon too)
User comment: Traded Clams to JC for 4gpt. Gets us positive cash flow and should improve relations
Tech learned: Feudalism
Barcelona finishes: Explorer
Cordoba finishes: Caravel
Hurrian finishes: Harbor

Turn 186 (1260 AD)
Research begun: Paper
Cordoba begins: Longbowman
Barcelona begins: Longbowman
Hurrian begins: Buddhist Monastery
User comment: Tok must be in contact with another civ... he just converted to a new religion.
User comment: Went with Paper so we can pick up some maps and help the circumnavigation
User comment: sheep for 1gpt to Louis. Just helping our economy and draining him a bit
Seville finishes: Buddhist Missionary

Turn 187 (1270 AD)
Seville begins: Buddhist Monastery
User comment: and now we see why he wouldn't trade literature. JC builds the Great LIbrary
User comment: He'll give up Lit for CoL... I don't think so
Barcelona finishes: Longbowman
Cordoba finishes: Longbowman
Hurrian finishes: Buddhist Monastery
Toledo grows: 13
Galley defeats (0.56/2): Barbarian Galley

Turn 188 (1280 AD)
Barcelona begins: Settler
Cordoba begins: Colosseum
Hurrian begins: Settler
Contact made: Mongolian Empire
User comment: He's even more backwards the Tok. No real reason to trade here either and no OB yet.
User comment: I can't see it form their relations, but I'd not be suprised if Tok and Genghis have sparred a bit.

User comment: We can research Astronomy which would let us trade overseas - but we'd lost Colosuss benefit.
User comment: So I'd recommend holding off on that until we're ready to start overseas expansion
User comment: Still Need Buddhism in Toledo.
User comment: Missionary in route to Arretium and Ravenna
User comment: Explorer east of boards the caravel (#3)to fully discover the western island and pop any huts we discover along the way.

Louis decided to found a city so he could get iron hooked up:

That missionary is going to JCs city to spread some religion and the axe ended up turning around. As long as we don't let him road that iron, Louis will be a pushover.

These guys are settled all over each other!

Shouldn't be too hard to get one to jump on the other with us when the time comes. Both are very backwards tech wise.

More coming!

 

[oldbustedjorn]

Seems like some good turns - I do want to destroy Louis and JC though - I just don't like them!!

I saw you building some settlers - for the west isle? I would think so, as JC will have them soon. I would start preparing for another war with Louis soon...

 

[bobrath]

And some screens for ya:

The world view:


Just to give you and idea of how close we really are to Tok And that we might want to consider founding a city near the fish on this screen.

I've started two settlers to kick off our expansion. Lots of possibilities:
Deer/copper in north
Iron/crabs/Whales further north
Western Island
On Tok's border with the Fish (send out explorer here first I'd suggest)

Our cultural "wars":

One note is that that triple contested spot between Toledo, Seville, and Lyons... is French and that means we can't get missionaries to the rest of JC yet. No land route!

We're on tops in all the categories!



and the save:
View attachment 114946


JC has Praetorians, but I've started getting some LongBows built up. Neither Tok nor Genghis will compete with us for circumnavigation, but getting their maps would be a help. There's still at least one other civ out there and its got to be the one that was leading in GNP... Find em if we can, but get the circumnavigation bonus. We're halfway there I suspect, but no idea when a big island will get in the way. Paper due to complete next turn, so check out trades.

I didn't revolt to serfdom since I suspect we'll want to whip more then we can about faster workers... plus slavery is a free civic.

More thoughts later.

 

[oldbustedjorn]

Wow looking at our GNP situation and even 70%/-1 isn't the best - I'd say we get the west Isle settled, and look for other opportunities that others can't reach. We may get galleons before anyone else, and can pick up nice islands here and there. The more we get, the less they get.

 

[Maquis]

Ok, I got it. I'll be playing in a couple hours.

I'll focus on exploration and try to settle a bit.

I want to find a source of horses, be it by trade or (hopefully) find a spot to settle.

 

[GreyFox]

nice set of turns, bobrath, you made us #1 in all the catgories that matters

We should be able to nab circum soon, depending on how big the tonku-genhis continent is.

We are on a standard map, right? hmmm .... where is 2 more AI? Most likely to the south of the jap-mongo.

You have to to Louis, this guy is really persistent and determined to get the desert-iron city up.

Could we buy some horses from the jap or the mongols?

I like your Forbidden Palace push in Paris, I usually built it quite late figuring then I know where is the optimum place to build it. However, then it get sort-of "obsoleted" real soon by the switch state property

We should spread missionaries to JC via sea, if land route is not possible.

I say we start settling the northern strip and the western isle first, since if we are delaying the astro to maximize our colossus, we can't settle out far too soon. The western isle is in fact a great location, with some nice seafodd resources. Once the jungle are cleared, each tile represent 2 food! Self-substaning cottage-spam site!

 

[Maquis]

Hopefully this was a decent turnset. Hope I didn't make too bad of decisions.
Also, I will upload my pictures at a later time. I can't seem to be able to upload to my charter website right now?? I will add these later when I can upload.

Turn 0, 1280AD: Looking around, everything looks OK. Off I go.

Turn 1, 1290AD: Movement, I meet Ghengis Kahn, ask for OB right away. I think I'll need passage to get through his land for the navigation bonus.

Turn 2, 1300AD: Paper in. Put on Literature (only 1 turn to discover). Spread Buddism to Ravinna.
Toledo: Acquiduct -> Market
Santiago: Granary -> Market

Turn 3, 1310AD: Literature in. Set to Music. I was thinking we might still have a chance at the Great Artist for this one.

Seville: Monistary -> Longbowman Also, I noticed Avoid growth is turned on here. I wonder how long that has been?? Seville has plenty Happy and Health. I turn off to let it grow!!


Turn 4, 1320AD: We meet Qin Sian Huan, he's on the south of the continent with Tokagowa and GK. I sign OB immidiately.

Turn 5, 1330AD:

Hurrian: Settler -> Acquiduct
Paris: Forbidden Palace -> Forge

Turn 6, 1340AD: Music in. No Artist though. I guess JC someone else got it. I choose printing Press for the $$ to Town and Village. This should settle our money problems once and for all Spiral Minuet in Madrid -> National Epic. I also increase Research to 80%, and we are still +5 GPT.
Barcelona: Settler -> Heroic Epic


Turn 7, 1350AD: I notice Loius is sending another settler north... too bad we were unable to get that Artist. I would have culture bombed Paris, and that would have sealed the path north for Loius. Oh well, I guess more spots for us.

Turn 8, 1360AD: I get the message, we have circumnavigated the globe!! Yeah! Great prophet born in Madrid. I decide he should build the Christian Shrine. Christianity has spread a bit to JC's lands, so we can benifit. Also, the added culture in Toledo will help.

Turn 9, 1370AD: I see JC has a settler onboard a galley, headed for the west isle. we also have a settler that just boarded, but no escort. I decide I should risk it, to get to the spot before JC.

Turn 10, 1380AD: Salemenica founded on west isle, just south of the fish. JC had unloaded his archer/settler pair the turn before, and I HAD to found it. IT IS UNPROTECTED at this point. I don't think that the AI will declare war just to take that site.



The Roster:

player 1: Maquis ----- Just played
player 2: oldbustedjorn ----- UP
player 3: eektor - On deck
player 4: GreyFox ----
player 5: bobrath ----


And the save...

 

[oldbustedjorn]

Wow we are really doing ok financially now....that means its time...

I guess that will be up to me then! I've been playing prince lately and using force more - lol I don't usually have a choice. I guess we should just take Louis once and for all, and then start planning for JC...

 

[Maquis]

One thing I forgot to mention; QSH has several resources of horses. unfortunatly we cannot trade until we get astronomy. I guess we need to suck it up and get there, then push to get a trade done to get our horses.

 

[GreyFox]

Great job snatching the site one turn before JC ... but the isle maybe able to hold 2 cities, so don't be surprise if we become close neighbors. JC has totally no incemtive to grab the site, (1) we are more powerful, (2) grabbing it now would autoraze, (3) it give us an "excuse" to finish him off -- and since french is blocking our way, guess that is an excuse to finish the french as well.

I think we have to bite it and get astronomy. The cancelation of colossus effect is well offset by the ability to get observatory (+25% research) and ocean trade routes.

Research-wise, we got paper, we got literature (why? it does not lead to anything, unless we don't have Drama). Once we get Music, I would suggest going for Liberalism.

getting circumnavigation.

 

[oldbustedjorn]

This is my official got it, I will hopefully play tomorrow afternoon sometime...

 

[bobrath]

Nice work. From a quick look at the save you used that explorer to get the circumnavigation! Nice.

I don't see that buddhism spread to the other continent. Did your attempt fail?

We don't have quiet the tech lead I'd like, but we need to smack Louis sooner rather then later. His cultural expansion is getting annoying. If he expands the borders one more time, he'll have iron hooked up to his core. I'd like to stop that before it happens. We've got two minor stacks sitting ready now. Lets augment them a bit (don't forget to switch to vassalge and theocracy first!) and wipe the french out. It will remove any last bit of unhappiness related to the french and will let us get a full land route with JC's core empire.

He's got praets so we need to be up in tech a bit. I agree that researching Astrology to get horses will be nice and our trades shouldn't be hurt as we'll have 3 new empires to conduct commerce with. Just remember that JC will backdoor us if he can so be sure we have longbows++ on our border cities.

 

[oldbustedjorn]

Ok, I will play this afternoon, but here are my prelim goals:

- Get Astro (if possible) and trade for horses
- Switch to war civics (yay were spiritual!!)
- Build several units and organize stacks - hopefully our UU will be available
- Get units into position

I probably won't get to the fighting, but maybe I could just start the