Once again, if we decide the qualifier is "knowing stuff", I have a feeling there are a bunch of adults that wouldn't like that applied across the board.
Voting Age 16?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
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Zardnaar
Deity
Kinda but 16 year olds aren't legally adults alot are still in school.
Age restrictions are completely arbitrary anyway at least on where you draw the line. If 16 year olds can vote why not 14 years olds how about 12?
And there's flow on effects as well regarding age of consent, marriage etc.
Synobun
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"If you let a teenager vote, you should let me bang them too" is an incredible stretch and also a very weird connection to make.
When do people become responsible adults? And what does that status bring?
What is most important in determining it?
What is most important in determining it?
- Age?
- Education?
- Physical maturity?
- Mental Maturity?
- A test?
- Something else?
This is a bit question begging really. We could start with what's a "responsible adult", is there even such a thing, are they they only ones who vote, are they the only ones who should be permitted to vote?
So you were really asking how my parents' jobs influenced my political awareness?
In my mother's case, not at all. While she was still living with us, I had scattered awareness of political things. I remember the news reports of the October Crisis scaring the hell out of me, as I didn't realize just how very far away Quebec is from here and that it had no impact at all on our lives. I remember that sometimes my grandparents would go to some mysterious place to do a thing called "voting" but I had no idea what that meant, since at that time children were not allowed into polling stations (they still aren't, legally speaking, but nobody pays attention to that rule anymore). During the last school year my mother lived with us, we had a municipal election, and my Grade 4 social studies class had a mock election for the two mayoral candidates. I had no idea who either of them were or what they stood for, so I mentally flipped a coin and picked one.
Years later, I'm embarrassed about that. The one I picked turned out to be a major jackass when he actually did win the mayoralty, and later on when he ran for alderman. I told him off quite publicly at the election forum when he started spouting some ignorant crap about people who take public transit.
One thing I should mention: My grandparents and dad never voted right-wing. Ever. Neither have I. My grandparents were Trudeau-supporting Liberals at a time when most others here were cursing him for existing, and the offspring of these people sometimes blame Justin Trudeau for things that happened when his father was Prime Minister (conveniently forgetting that Justin was a child at the time and could not have had a shred of influence on his father's decisions).
I remember my grandparents wondering what to do after Pierre Trudeau retired. I figured there were other parties that weren't Conservative or Social Credit, and we should check them out. And then along came the NDP candidate, doing his doorknocking, and he was very surprised when he came to our place. He likely expected to get a "not interested" at best; at worst, he would have expected to be yelled at and the door slammed in his face.
I invited him in to speak to my grandparents, to tell them what he and his party stood for, as our family was considering our choices. It was an amicable conversation, and the NDP got our votes (they also put us on the mailing/phone list, as political parties do, but whatever; I've never had any formal party memberships).
I've occasionally voted other parties - Green a few times, Mel Hurtig's fledgling party once (that was the first year I worked for Elections Canada and nobody had told me I had to vote at the advance polls because I might not be assigned to the polling station where I'd normally vote, so I had about 3 hours to visit the campaign offices of the parties I was considering and make up my mind before going to the polling station).
One Thanksgiving weekend our science fiction convention shared a hotel when the provincial Liberals were holding a leadership convention (the leader had been ousted via backroom politics and a non-confidence vote, but he'd decided to run again in the subsequent leadership race).
Our group had the misfortune to be put next to this candidate's hospitality suite. Oh, groovy. Not. I remember an SCA friend nearly falling off her chair laughing when I told her, "My roommates and I are in the room next to Nick Taylor," and her response was, "What god did YOU offend?"
Nick Taylor himself wasn't so bad; my grandmother liked him. But his delegates made that weekend hell for us. Their constant noise, milling around the hallway and making it hard for us to even get in or out of our room, the smoke, the rudeness and mockery toward us and our convention... and their attempt to get our convention kicked out of the hotel by falsely telling the cops that people were doing drugs in our consuite... let's just say that I vowed then and there to never vote Liberal again in my life (provincially). Those idiots had a golden opportunity to politely engage with hundreds of intelligent SF/F fans, most of whom were politically minded, and make a courteous pitch as to why we should vote for them.
Instead, they were rude, condescending, boorish, arrogant, insulting, and many other things. They ensured that we would have NO incentive to vote for their party - why would we, when they treated us that way?
It was many years before I relented and voted for that party - once - because of the local candidate. But that was the last time.
"Responsible" as in "accountable" for their actions.
Zardnaar
Deity
More class and education levels vs voting due to parents influence.
I voted for Labour essentially die to mother's influence (she hated National).
The right wing trickle down doesn't work imho but it's not really why I voted against them in 1996 mire because I lived through the results of their policies.
Zardnaar
Deity
Not really a few here have argued that age is no impediment to voting (or access to hormones).
Same arguments used though could apply to sex for example. What if a 12 or 14 year old wants to have sex k
Making an informed decision?
Age of consent here is 16, 18 in parts of USA 14 in Netherlands etc.
uh oh
TheMeInTeam
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no matter where you set the line, if you have an age requirement, it amounts to discrimination by definition
the better question is whether discrimination based on this metric is justified. since newborns can't physically go through the motions of voting, this discrimination is obviously justified. the real question is where the line is drawn and why
telling that same person that despite that they can make these decisions for others at an incredible scale, they are still somehow not yet capable of making life altering decisions for themselves at the personal level is the weird position. this also applies to medical procedures, employment, etc. there is no credible basis for denying these things based on age, if we allow voting at that same age. both assume the person in question is competent to make informed evaluations of both short and long-term consequences.
thus i'm not comfortable moving the age requirement lower. though i also acknowledge that there are people in 16-18 range that are clearly more mature/capable of reasoning than a few examples i can think of off hand at age 25-28+. thus these questions are both extremely relevant and not easy to answer:
the better question is whether discrimination based on this metric is justified. since newborns can't physically go through the motions of voting, this discrimination is obviously justified. the real question is where the line is drawn and why
voters make policy decisions that affect lives, sometimes many lives. to the extent that those choices can result in saving or ending them, or at minimum altering them permanently wrt some policy choices
telling that same person that despite that they can make these decisions for others at an incredible scale, they are still somehow not yet capable of making life altering decisions for themselves at the personal level is the weird position. this also applies to medical procedures, employment, etc. there is no credible basis for denying these things based on age, if we allow voting at that same age. both assume the person in question is competent to make informed evaluations of both short and long-term consequences.
thus i'm not comfortable moving the age requirement lower. though i also acknowledge that there are people in 16-18 range that are clearly more mature/capable of reasoning than a few examples i can think of off hand at age 25-28+. thus these questions are both extremely relevant and not easy to answer:
we have long used 18 as some convenient point to draw the line, but other than that convenience/need to pick *something*, there's nothing magical to it. though i'd argue that if anything, societal trends suggest maturing later rather than earlier, and thus if we continue to use age it doesn't look like decreasing the requirement is the correct direction...
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Zardnaar
Deity
I wouldn't vote to decrease or increase the voting age.
What the says here they have to justify the limitation.
Could turn out to young is the justification. Hell maybe it will go to referendum abd they win.
If society on general has already agreed age limits are not discrimination.
Trump hasn't managed that yet. Neither has his voters. So what does age have to do with it?
If you don't use age as the marker, what is the appropriate measuring stick to determine when the right to vote should be granted?
TheMeInTeam
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discrimination is a generic term. no matter what you agree on, an age limit is discrimination based on age. it's just a matter of whether it's considered justified.
exam grades discriminate based on knowledge between good and bad students (plus some noise factors). professional sports teams discriminate based on physical capabilities etc. whether discrimination is bad or not depends on the reason for discrimination.
i don't know if 18 is optimal or not for voting age, or even how we'd estimate/decide on what's optimal. the notion that voters can decide how you and i should live but can't give consent for themselves is absurd though. these things are necessarily linked to the same set of capabilities. there are obvious, unjustified inconsistencies even in current us law (alcohol vs tobacco vs voting age for instance). i similarly don't think restricting "capable" voters from drinking alcohol (but somehow not tobacco in some places) can hold up to basic rational scrutiny, but it's where we are
It's the opposite for me, though. I remember explaining this stuff to my parents. My mother became a born-again voter after she worked at a polling station one election. My dad couldn't be bothered to attend the forums or watch the debates on TV, so he just asked who I planned to vote for and voted the same.
Zardnaar
Deity
Well to be fair to mum I've independently concluded gee political views. Basically the right fundamentally doesn't work (unless you're a investor, corporate type or whatever).
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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When you see what's allowed in Europe, it's already been and is always going to be weird. I'm going to guess 16 year olds have a better intuitive grasp on their sexuality than the political game.
Voting is political force. Make no bones about it, the economies are political and the voters indirectly choose who to create out of whole cloth with unprofitable ventures subsidized(Tesla, SNAP) and whose to tax and disadvantage unto failure(Taxis, increasingly brick and mortar, anti-depressant competitors). There is a really good argument in that people who receive leeway for maturity regarding their responsibilities under the law should probably have no place in exercising raw political force(ie writing that law)*. That we draft at 18 was the most eloquent proof that we treat 18 year olds as capable of wielding such force. Trying children as adults muddies the picture. I suppose we should reconcile that. Either cut it out, or try them all that way and lower the voting age.
Felons shouldn't vote until their time has been paid?
*as a different way of phrasing it, a person deciding to have sex, or get married, is deciding what to do with their life and their body. A person voting is deciding what other people are allowed to do with theirs.
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João III
King
I'm under the impression that more votes=better democracy so therefore I don't see why there are any age limits on voting. Let infants vote
PPQ_Purple
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If it was up to me voting age would be 30.
