Voting Age 16?

[Zardnaar]

While overseas people love arguing about voting here a new issue has popped up.

Parliament now has to justify keeping the voting age at 18 – it's a hard argument to make

Opinion - This week's Supreme Court judgment on lowering New Zealand's legal voting age has, at times, been interpreted as some kind of mandate for change. That's not quite the case, but the court's ruling does at least make change a possibility.

www.rnz.co.nz

Essentially the arguement says voting at age 18 discriminates against people based on age.

This doesn't mean 16 will become the new voting age but it does open the door. One could also argue against age restrictions in other areas theoretically (booze/tobacco sales, retirement etc).

Not surprisingly the right wing parties are opposed. In 2020 they held a survey on it and 85% were opposed to lowering it.

Overall I think I'm also opposed. 18 is generally the age where one is legally an adult. 16 year olds lack life experience and are still under their parents "control". They can't really tell them to sod off for example. At 16 my political views essentially aligned with my mother's I voted for NZ Labour party aged 18 (and aged 42 go figure).

Anyway CFCs thoughts?

 

[Birdjaguar]

16 year olds are mostly too ignorant and hormone deluded to be responsible voters. 18 is not much better, but since we recruit them for military service, we need to let them vote.

 

[Gorbles]

Oh, this is going to be a good thread

Once again, I'm reminded of the boomer thread (I think it was) aelf made, and all the upset generalising people based on their age caused.

 

[Arwon]

You guys let 16 year olds get gun licences in New Zealand, you have zero grounds to argue it's not an appropriate agree to vote lol.

This court decision looks pretty straight forward. The NZ Human Rights Act defines age discrimination as being against those over 16, they looked at voting being restricted to 18 plus. They fairly obviously concluded that's discriminatory against 16 and 17 year olds. Not a difficult question to answer for them.

 

[Cutlass]

Yes. Ban voting over 70.

 

[Arwon]

16 year olds are mostly too ignorant and hormone deluded to be responsible voters. 18 is not much better, but since we recruit them for military service, we need to let them vote.

There's a number of countries where 16 year olds have the franchise including Germany, Brazil, Malta and Scotland. To justify this you'd need to explain why that's caused problems in those countries.

Also in NZ people can apply for the military at age 16 and a half to finish basic training by 18, in Australia you can join the ADF at 17 and apply earlier. And I'm pretty sure in the US you can join at 17 too.

 

[Hygro]

Yes, let's expand enfranchisement.

 

[Arwon]

Yes, let's expand enfranchisement.

Always a good thing

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes. Ban voting over 70.

Unless you have some other connected criteria, age cut offs (at the top or bottom) are completely arbitrary. Many elderly are quite mentally excellent well past 70 and your selection of such a number is rooted in some other agenda. So unless we get into testing, an upper age limits is probably not useful. We do test the elderly for driving.

There's a number of countries where 16 year olds have the franchise including Germany, Brazil, Malta and Scotland. To justify this you'd need to explain why that's caused problems in those countries.
Also in NZ people can apply for the military at age 16 and a half to finish basic training by 18, in Australia you can join the ADF at 17 and apply earlier. And I'm pretty sure in the US you can join at 17 too.

Having the franchise is not a qualification, it is a status and if 16 is allowed, why not 15? And so we keep moving down the age scale. Some people might well be suited to vote at 14 while others not until 18-20. Do we need testing? I'm sure there is a case to be made that prepubescents would be better voters than teens. We do know that most teenagers are hormone drenched bodies that are biologically out of sync with what they will/should become in a few years. I think their mental state needs to "ripen" before they participate in governance. More education is a good thing too.

Linking voting to military service is fine with me, but I would connect it at the point where a person can called up for actual duty in a way that is risky. Taking ROTC courses in HS is not the same as enlisting to go through boot camp and deployment.

 

[Hygro]

Hmm good point why not 14

 

[amadeus]

You guys let 16 year olds get gun licences in New Zealand, you have zero grounds to argue it's not an appropriate agree to vote lol.

I’d raise the gun license age to 30.

 

[Synobun]

Political involvement is strongly encouraged in teenagers nowadays. This seems fine. Their grasp on politics, while not great, probably won't be much different than that of the average adult.

In the big picture, this may lead to greater investment in community. That sounds like a net good to me. Teenagers with big ideas want to feel like they're involved and having an impact. It also adds a component to campaigning where candidates need to consider the youth vote, necessitating that they learn what is even important to people who are possibly two generations away from them. Stronger pressure to relate to present-day issues can only be positive.

Kids might vote as their parents do. Many will. They do this when they reach 18 too. How many times have you heard "We're a [Party] family"? I've heard it tons. Since conservatives believe they are the silent majority, they should be fine with this possibility.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In the US less than 50% of those eligible vote. We need to figure out how to get the non voters to vote before we go after teens.

 

[Zardnaar]

I’d raise the gun license age to 30.

It's kind of a left over from when you could drop out of school at 15 and qualify for welfare or join the workforce. Or get your driver's license.

Working on a farm being able to use a gun can be useful.

 

[Zardnaar]

There's a number of countries where 16 year olds have the franchise including Germany, Brazil, Malta and Scotland. To justify this you'd need to explain why that's caused problems in those countries.

Also in NZ people can apply for the military at age 16 and a half to finish basic training by 18, in Australia you can join the ADF at 17 and apply earlier. And I'm pretty sure in the US you can join at 17 too.

Using that logic one could argue against any age restriction.

NZ bill of rights isn't exactly iron clad either. There's usually a BUT exception and in any case it can be rewritten with a simple act of parliament eg any government with the numbers.

Section 5

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM224792.html

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Political involvement is strongly encouraged in teenagers nowadays. This seems fine. Their grasp on politics, while not great, probably won't be much different than that of the average adult.

In the big picture, this may lead to greater investment in community. That sounds like a net good to me. Teenagers with big ideas want to feel like they're involved and having an impact. It also adds a component to campaigning where candidates need to consider the youth vote, necessitating that they learn what is even important to people who are possibly two generations away from them. Stronger pressure to relate to present-day issues can only be positive.

Kids might vote as their parents do. Many will. They do this when they reach 18 too. How many times have you heard "We're a [Party] family"? I've heard it tons. Since conservatives believe they are the silent majority, they should be fine with this possibility.

Except that so many of them are convinced that if you let a 16-year-old vote, they'd automatically vote NDP just because bhangra dancing is cool (both Justin and Jagmeet know how to do bhangra dancing). It couldn't possibly be about any serious issues, right?

I'm in favor of letting 16-year-olds vote. We let them drive, which is a decidedly adult privilege and responsibility. In Canada, most political parties have a youth tier of membership that allows 14-18-year-olds join (and do the gofering and scut work during campaigns while being indoctrinated into the party's ideology).

I was 16 in 1979. That was the year that Joe Clark was Prime Minister for a few months (youngest PM we ever had, at age 39). I was annoyed that I wasn't old enough to vote, since I'd have voted for the local Liberal candidate. But I still attended the forums, talked to the doorknockers, and the election that year and next were nightly topics around the supper table. Nobody told me I was too young to understand this stuff.

In the US less than 50% of those eligible vote. We need to figure out how to get the non voters to vote before we go after teens.

That's like saying we should never strive for space travel until everything is perfect on Earth. It will never happen and so we're doubly cheating ourselves. And once the people who do vote die off, what's left? Change the government to Fanatacism/Communism/whatever your favorite version of Civ calls the non-voting kinds of government?

Rick Mercer, one of Canada's top political satirists, made a couple of Rant videos about voting, when his show "Rick Mercer Report" was on. They are over a decade old and every bit as relevant now as then:

 

[Farm Boy]

before we go after teens.

Like anything has ever really stopped the people that go after teens.

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This is the age group we **** ourselves about when they want to get married. Right?

 

[Arwon]

In the US less than 50% of those eligible vote. We need to figure out how to get the non voters to vote before we go after teens.

That's mostly just voter suppression and a crap electoral system, no mystery there. Has nothing at all to do with voting age.

 

[amadeus]

It's kind of a left over from when you could drop out of school at 15 and qualify for welfare or join the workforce. Or get your driver's license.

Working on a farm being able to use a gun can be useful.

Undoubtedly the New Zealand context is going to be different from that which I’m most familiar. I guess if I was actually talking about guns and not electoral franchise, I’d say have a dual standard of those living on farms in the countryside and city-dwellers like myself where guns would be used mainly for crime.

Anyway, 18 is good enough in our day and age. If I was really reactionary, I’d say pull out the old Prussian three-class suffrage and weight the polls based on contribution to state coffers.

 

[Zardnaar]

Undoubtedly the New Zealand context is going to be different from that which I’m most familiar. I guess if I was actually talking about guns and not electoral franchise, I’d say have a dual standard of those living on farms in the countryside and city-dwellers like myself where guns would be used mainly for crime.

Anyway, 18 is good enough in our day and age. If I was really reactionary, I’d say pull out the old Prussian three-class suffrage and weight the polls based on contribution to state coffers.

Generally our age stuff ranges from 16-18.

Used to be 14/15 to 18.

Similar thing with 15 year olds driving. Rural kids could drive to school or work on the farm.

Into the 80's you could get unemployment benefit age 15 iirc. Drop out of school as well and go work on a farm or freezing works.

First job on farm aged 13 I remember 14 year olds riding quad bikes.

They've cracked down on a lot of that for various reasons.