VQ04 - Revenge!

eektor · Apr 2, 2006

Got it. I'll play tonight but first I want to ask a question to see if I can get a consensus on what everyone wants.

I was thinking we should postpone attacking Hatty until we get knights because we could lose a lot of praets against the longbowmen. Instead of Hatty, we should probably take out Toku first if he hasn't discovered feudalism and hasn't built any longbowmen. I just think if we get in a war with Hatty, it could be drawn out too long as if say we fight against a technologically backward Toku. Any thoughts on this?

@GreyFox - I'll keep those comments in mind. Thanks. Hmm and I can see Antium is unhealthy too.

Edit: I read a post wrong.

Maquis · Apr 2, 2006

- a worker is building unworkable farm near japanese border thatis outside any city's BFC:

Ok, the reason I did this was (in anticipation of Civil Service) was to be able to spread irrigation to Neapolis. Right now there are no tiles that can spread it into the BFC.

I too wonder about Hatty. She's up there (close to us) in score. Toku would definatly be a better target. (Sorry I left our big stack over to the west)

ChrTh · Apr 2, 2006

@Team:

With obj not available, would y'all like another player? I'm looking to get into another game with a team that doesn't suck ... and you qualify!

Let me know.

Maquis · Apr 2, 2006

I think we could use another player... but I really want to keep OBJ on as an alternate, as he is a regualr VQ'er. -- especially for this revenge game!

As for saying our team "doesn't suck" well, that's a little debatable, as we have been wiped out in our last 2 SG's :lol:

ChrTh · Apr 2, 2006

Maquis said:
I think we could use another player... but I really want to keep OBJ on as an alternate, as he is a regualr VQ'er. -- especially for this revenge game!

As for saying our team "doesn't suck" well, that's a little debatable, as we have been wiped out in our last 2 SG's

Losing is not a sign of sucking. Giving up is a sign of sucking

Is that a yes?

Maquis · Apr 2, 2006

It's a yes from me, hopefully the other teammates agree?

eektor · Apr 2, 2006

Well, I was hoping for some more thoughts on who to go after next. I think I'll wait til tomorrow to play.

As for ChrTh, I say yes. Ooh and if you have any comments on who to attack next feel free to say something.

GreyFox · Apr 2, 2006

Of-course, ChrTh, I would be honored.

So what's the order of the roster now?

@maquis: ok, I guessed something like that (abt the farming thing ... but that is a lot of farms to farm

) ... might be better to simply chop off that forest by the river.

-

Maquis · Apr 2, 2006

So what's the order of the roster now?

Roster
player 1: Maquis -- just played
player 2: eektor -- UP
player 3: bobrath -- on deck
player 4: GreyFox --
player 5: ChrTh --
alternate: oldbustedjorn --

bobrath · Apr 2, 2006

ChrTh said:
I'm looking to get into another game with a team that doesn't suck ... and you qualify!

See... now I think I have a quote worthy of a sig. hmmm

GreyFox · Apr 3, 2006

I am divided as to who to attack next: on one hand moving our armies from the west would take like forever ... on the other, attacking hatty might be a very big challenge.

Looking at ou economy, I will say we attack Toku. We need those turns spent in marshalling our SoD to Japan soil to further enhance our economy a bit (and of-ourse built us a few more cats).

But remember we have a mini-SoD in Notingham, so, we can start hammering on Toku 2-3 turns before our main stack arrives.

-

Maquis · Apr 3, 2006

on one hand moving our armies from the west would take like forever ...

Well, we do still have OB with Hatty, so that would help a bit... we can cut across her lands, and pop out up by Nottingham.

ChrTh · Apr 3, 2006

Thanks for letting me play

... I'll take a look at the save tonight and make some comments on who to :hammer:

bobrath · Apr 3, 2006

Just to put the other foot forward:

vq02 - we moved to far from home and then wasted time moving the forces all the way back across our empire. Early war (pre engineering imo) is about getting your forces pre positioned and making sure the next target is next in line. That's the reason in my turn I started creating a SoD in Nottingham.

From Maquis culture shot it does look like Mansa is NW of Hatty. That means if we go to war with Hatty we will have to look seriously at going with Mansa next instead of Tokugowa.

Next player may want to see if Hatty can be bribed into a war with Tokugowa. It would improve our relations with her - bleed her a bit - weaken Tokugowa until we can mop up.

All that would lead to us leaving Hatty as our much safer backdoor while we take down the Americans. Only real danger will be if Hatty starts capturing cities too fast and we create a monster.

If she'll come in for cheap, then I'd suggest doing it asap AND marching our SoDs through her lands. She can't organize her SoDs any faster then we can walk ours through and that will be just fine.

Remember too that she's Creative so any cities that border her either need to get raized OR pump up the culture stuff fast.

Any update on our religious standing? Vassalage and Theocracy would be nice...

eektor · Apr 3, 2006

I know in VQ02 we made a mistake of moving too far from home and set us back a few turns.

The reason why I suggest Toku is that I think if we were going to attack hatty we should wait since we would lose a lot of praets attacking longbowmen, where as attacking Toku would be easier without longbowmen.

Also, if we get involved in a war with Hatty and it takes too long, there is a good chance Toku could attack us. Where as if we attacked Toku, Hatty is a more peaceful neighbor.

I like the idea of bribing Hatty to help us with Toku, then after Toku work on the Americans. I feel Hatty and Mansa are our most peaceful neighbor.

@bobrath - I know you were trying to show the other side of the argument, but as for your opinion what do you think is better?

ChrTh · Apr 3, 2006

I'm going to suggest something else: attack George through FDR. Go East. Why? They're weak techwise(except for HBR), and they're last on the power chart. Also, they have a lot of little cities, which may grow powerful as they get bigger (especially since GW is financial). Not saying conquer them quite yet, but take out FDR's nearby cities and the nearest row of GW cities in order to stunt their growth.

bobrath · Apr 3, 2006

hmmm, as much as I'm all for picking off the easier target.. won't they still be easier in a few years?

What we can't afford to do is waste the praet advantage. I haven't looked at the save, but if Tok doesn't have longbowmen - but is close to them; then we need to take him down now. Perhaps FDR or George will still be tech low and present a third easy target to level up our Praets.

As tempting as going East may be - how many turns will it take to shift our offense over there while making sure our west defense is enough in case Hatty gets uppity?

@Eektor - Tokugowa, but try everything you can to get Hatty to jump in. The boost to relationship points for joint military struggle should be enough to keep her off our back. Seriously tho, use your best judgement and go for it.

GreyFox · Apr 3, 2006

Ok, some summary on pros and cons on target for :hammer:

Hatty
Pros

Our armies are already there
Her culture pressure is causing us growth problem
We cleared the space SW for her, leaving her alone now will cause her to grow even bigger
She has a shrine which would help our economy

Cons

She has longsbows
She is the tech + score leader
we might get into a long, difficult war making us vulnerable
Edit by ChrTh: We don't get to look at her if we eliminate her

Toku
Pros

He is weak
Nobody likes him
We get to expand into our original intended lands

Cons

Army is far

East
Pros

Prevent the Americans from getting stronger
We have friendly backlines, so only need to watch Toku

Cons

Edit by eektor:Army is very far

Anything I missed?

--

Weighing against pro and cons, I would say getting rid of Toku first, then the Americans. Thereafter, we will have all the time and land we need to catch up with Hatty and Mansa in terms of Tech and economy. Then, its doom's time for them.

--.

ChrTh · Apr 3, 2006

Great eval, GreyFox. You forgot that Hattie is hot and if we eliminate her we don't get to look at her anymore

(so that's a Con) ... I find the "attack Toku then US" idea most compelling.

eektor · Apr 3, 2006

Preturn: 800 AD
Ok, first of all ChrTh suggestions was interesting. (You guys were supposed to say the same thing, so I can be more reassured I'm doing the right thing.

) I checked the save to see what I thought but when I saw our main army would have to go 15 turns to reach Washington and two FDR cities were in the way, I thought Toku would be better. I can get my armies to Toka in 7 turns.

I decided to go after Toka. First I wanted to trade some of our resources to get more money and bump our science rate up. I traded resources with Hatty, Mansa, and Washington. Got enough money to bump us up to 50% science rate with a surplus of +3.

Turn 1: 820 AD
Congradulations we are the largest civ in the world. [party]

(crap I had this picture ... I might have accidentally deleted it.)

Discovered Code of Laws. Decided we need Feudalism and Guilds, so I started research on priesthood.

Moved our stack toward Tokyo.

Turn 2: 840 AD
Discovered Priesthood.
Researching Monarchy. We will be able to access our wine now.

I decided we had some good opportunity to trade some techs. So I got Monarchy, Calendar, and Polytheism for Code of Laws (2) and Alphabet. Not too bad I thought.

Instead of going for Feudalism, I decided to take a quick detour for Civil Service, so we can have Bureacracy and irrigation.

Turn 3- 7: 860 - 940 AD
Building stuff and waiting for my stack to get to Tokyo.

Turn 8: 960 AD
Declared war on the Japanese.

Turn 9: 980 AD
Captured Edo and kept. With it close to our capital and near a copper, I decide it would be better to have it.

Turn 10: 1000 AD

After turn comments:
Tokyo can be captured next turn. I suggest to keep it, since the Egyptian culture pressure won't affect it that much. Check the culture map to see it. Toka is easy there was only 2 units in Edo and there are 3 in Tokyo. Not sure if the others will be that easy.

It seems like Egypt and Mansa are getting ahead in techs. After we incorporate Japan into our territory, we might need to get our economy going to compete with them. We have lots of land and territory so it shouldn't be that hard to catch up. Our economy seems to be picking up after the last two turnsets (I noticed from the graph.) We could use more courthouses.

Here's the autolog:

Spoiler :

View attachment 122241

VQ04 - Revenge!

Prince

King

Happy Yule!

King

Happy Yule!

King

Prince

Make it so ...

King

Emperor

Make it so ...

King

Happy Yule!

Emperor

Prince

Happy Yule!

Emperor

Make it so ...

Happy Yule!

Prince

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