Wanna know why immigrants can't easily integrate?

[Masquerouge]

And yes, I think that if someone moves to America then they should culturally and linguistically integrate. They want to move to America to be American...not be a (whatever) in America.

What exactly do you mean by culturally? I should stop watching soccer and start loving baseball?

 

[skadistic]

What exactly do you mean by culturally? I should stop watching soccer and start loving baseball?

Please god no baseball sucks. But since you called it soccer instead of football.........

 

[Fëanor]

And my point is that people with such attitudes should try living in a completely alien culture and see how well they integrate, or their children integrate. Try living in such a country for five, ten, or twenty years, or at least talk to someone who has. You can find them on the internet. They do not integrate after having lived so long outside their culture, neither would you. The point of this thread is that it would be nice for cultural xenophobes to be less hypocritical.

i was born in Italy and lived there for 8 years, i moved to the Netherlands and lived here for 16 years, in 5 years i was quite integrated and i can confidently say that now i embrace dutch values like most dutch peoples, and while it is true that after one year about half the people i knew were of Italian descendant, after five years only a couple were and right now i only know a handful of Italians, all my friends are Dutch.

Now, i also know a couple of persons from Moroccan descent, born and raised here, they keep overwhelmingly amongst "their kind" and despise pretty all the values that made the Netherlands what it is.

so please tell me, who are the Cultural Xenophobes? the peoples that welcome immigrants from all the corners of the globe, or the Immigrants (and children of) whom refuse cultures other than their own? now there is your hypocrisy!

 

[MobBoss]

What exactly do you mean by culturally? I should stop watching soccer and start loving baseball?

Not exactly, but there are some that do. By that I mean that you can enjoy a great mexican meal if you are vietnamese or vice versa. By embracing the melting pot mentality is what I mean by embracing americas culture.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

i was born in Italy and lived there for 8 years, i moved to the Netherlands and lived here for 16 years, in 5 years i was quite integrated and i can confidently say that now i embrace dutch values like most dutch peoples, and while it is true that after one year about half the people i knew were of Italian descendant, after five years only a couple were and right now i only know a handful of Italians, all my friends are Dutch.

Now, i also know a couple of persons from Moroccan descent, born and raised here, they keep overwhelmingly amongst "their kind" and despise pretty all the values that made the Netherlands what it is.

so please tell me, who are the Cultural Xenophobes? the peoples that welcome immigrants from all the corners of the globe, or the Immigrants (and children of) whom refuse cultures other than their own? now there is your hypocrisy!

Why do you think I specified Asian countries and not some random European country? Could it possibly be because European countries are very close to each other culturally, whereas Asian societies are very far apart from Western culture? Hell, even from each other, Asians are xenophobic themselves by and large. For proof of that, just look up the 2003 Phnom Penh riots.

If you think that the Netherlands and Italy are really that far apart from each other culturally, well, I don't think I need to say anything to that.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Not exactly, but there are some that do. By that I mean that you can enjoy a great mexican meal if you are vietnamese or vice versa. By embracing the melting pot mentality is what I mean by embracing americas culture.

America is devoid of cultural heritage. American culture is just a mishmash of European cultures, added with a healthy dose of arrogant cynicism and boosted by the most powerful government in the world.

 

[skadistic]

America is devoid of cultural heritage. American culture is just a mishmash of European cultures, added with a healthy dose of arrogant cynicism and boosted by the most powerful government in the world.

Jealous maybe?

 

[MobBoss]

America is devoid of cultural heritage. American culture is just a mishmash of European cultures, added with a healthy dose of arrogant cynicism and boosted by the most powerful government in the world.

Wrong. America takes what is best from those cultures and makes it even better. I can go out tonight and have sushi if I wanted, or a nice burrito from my favorite mexican restaurant (established by direct mexican immigrants btw), korean, or varieties of chinese dishes, vietnamese or thai restaurants (all established by immigrants), Italian, or just a big honking steak from the Outback or other steakhouse.

Wow. Now I am hungry.

 

[civverguy]

Yes, it is hard to integrate because of the language and culture if you are moving from an Asian country to a Western country or vise versa. A lot of people I know (including me), have the experience.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Wrong. America takes what is best from those cultures and makes it even better. I can go out tonight and have sushi if I wanted, or a nice burrito from my favorite mexican restaurant (established by direct mexican immigrants btw), korean, or varieties of chinese dishes, vietnamese or thai restaurants (all established by immigrants), Italian, or just a big honking steak from the Outback or other steakhouse.

Wow. Now I am hungry.

Vietnamese, Japanese, Mexican, Chinese, Korean, Thai, Italian, and British food is not American just because people brought it to America. If I opened a restaurant serving pizza here, would my pizza be Lao food?

 

[Fëanor]

Why do you think I specified Asian countries and not some random European country? Could it possibly be because European countries are very close to each other culturally, whereas Asian societies are very far apart from Western culture? Hell, even from each other, Asians are xenophobic themselves by and large. For proof of that, just look up the 2003 Phnom Penh riots.

If you think that the Netherlands and Italy are really that far apart from each other culturally, well, I don't think I need to say anything to that.

Well if you think that they are not far apart from each other then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I Assure you that there is a lot of difference between an somewhat backward, extremely catholic and conservative Italian rural village, and a extremely modern, secularized, liberal and multicultural dutch urban area is quite large, linguistically with no connections whatsoever and culturally almost nothing.

Sure for someone that moves from an even more backward place like much of the Rural Third World the difference would be even larger, but why should that matter? why refuse to Integrate in the culture of were you immigrate to? if the culture and values they come from are so much better then why immigrate in the first place?

 

[Brighteye]

I struggle to find arrogant cynicism in American culture. In fact, I see quite a lot of arrogance and naivete.

The reason that people (like me) who think that immigrants should integrate is because they have immigrated. I have not immigrated, and therefore I am not a hypocrite.
If I chose to go to an oriental country for good (rather than a work placement) then I would indeed integrate. In fact, I would probably have chosen to go because I had already done a lot to make myself integrate before even leaving.

I have not chosen to emigrate because I hold English values and culture dear. I like England the way it is, and if immigrants prefer their own ways of doing things, I don't see why they shouldn't. However, I also don't see why they find it necessary to come here to do it.

Temporary workers have a very different approach from true immigrants. I have known a few families who were here for a short time, and was grateful to be allowed into their 'home from home'.
However, an immigrant who has made England his home should treat it as such, and not scorn everything that it has to offer that distinguishes it from other nations.

 

[Ansar]

But my point was to say that you should expect more people to speak English than French, as a rule. So an English immigrant should have more people speaking English to him than a French one... you get it.

Well, that's why learning French is also important.

If you don't know English, you should know French, right?

As an immigrant myself, I'd have to say it hugely depends on not knowing the language. If more immigrants knew the language, they would be more aware of what happens around them. They could communicate and integrate with society, but without knowing the language, you seek people of your own race and never bother learning the language (in this case, English) because you can live your life speaking your native toungue.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

America is devoid of cultural heritage. American culture is just a mishmash of European cultures, added with a healthy dose of arrogant cynicism and boosted by the most powerful government in the world.

I know isn't it awesome? I love this country.

 

[colontos]

Step one: purchase a plane ticket and a residency visa/work permit to an Asian country of your choice. Preferably a poorer one, but China or even South Korea would do fine.

Step two: set up a neat little life, a house, a job of some sorts, etc. Collect everything you'll need to live for a year.

Step three: live in said conditions for one year.

I lived in South Korea for 2 years, had a regular job and an apartment. So I have met these conditions. Let's continue...

Step four: examine your life after one year. Take a look at who your friends are, where you go, what you eat, what language you predominantly speak, and how difficult it's been for you to pick up what little you have of the local language.

You'll be surprised to learn that you still mostly hang out with fellow [white, English speaking] foreigners. While you'll probably have a few friends and co-workers who are locals, most of your mates will be fellow falang.

Nope. Interestingly, I taught English, so I worked with all Americans and Canadians. However, I never hung out with them outside of work. All but one of my friends were Korean. A few spoke English, most did not.

And the language! You have only mastered a few rudimentary phrases in the local language (most likely), and you'll be amazed that the locals will try to speak your language to you! Scratch your head at that one. In your country, you demanded people speak your language, and now that you live in another country where a completely different language is official and predominantly spoken, you come across tons of people who would rather speak to you in your language, the foreign language, than people who will demand you speak the local one!

First of all, after living in Korea for two years, I can converse about any basic subject in Korean. True, I do not know medical or scientific terminology, but I can even talk about fairly complicated political subjects. I still make mistakes, a lot, but I can get my message across. I also understand about 90-95% of the Korean I hear.

Yes, many Koreans did attempt to speak to me in English. Usually, my Korean was much better than their English, so the conversation ended up being in Korean. But Koreans have a great desire to learn and use English, seeing it as a key to success. That is only because it's the global language.

Culturally, have you changed at all? Not one bit! While you've probably learned to put up with local cultural nuances, ie you are more aware of the value of face, you still adhere to Western customs and the locals for the most part don't seem to care. When you're out with your mates you still conduct yourself in the same manner. You still have the same worldview as before, and you still treat people in the same manner. Yet, no one seems to care!

Wrong again. I ate Korean food every day (and still eat it a lot). Sure, I sometimes yearned for Western food, and ate it, but that's only natural. I ate Korean food every day, hung out with Koreans, spoke mostly Korean with them.

In short, people don't seem to care that you haven't integrated and adapted to their culture despite the fact that you're living in their country! Strange isn't it?

Well, in Asia (since that was your example), no matter what I do, I will never be seen as fully integrated because of my race. I'm sure you are aware of this.

What do you think? Should a white, English speaking foreigner have to adapt in such circumstances?

Should, and I did. And you know what? It wasn't hard.

How did I learn the language? I bought a Korean textbook, read some every day, and then went outside to use what I had learned. When I first got there I knew no Korean. Now I can converse on any everyday subject. It isn't hard. Your point, Pasi, falls flat, because with a little bit of effort, anyone can do it. I didn't even take Korean classes, I simply used a book and then got out on the street and used it.

 

[colontos]

Pasi, if I may ask (because it's relevant here), what is your racial/ethnic background?

 

[Atlas14]

Is asking an immigrant, who is planning to live here for an extended period of time, to culturally and linguistically integrate too much? From a business standpoint, if you can't speak English or at least communicate fairly easily with me, then you shouldn't be hired. Those that don't wish to integrate should stick with jobs that don't require linguistic adaptation.

 

[Ansar]

colontos, where do you find all this spare time (plus money to travel)? (Didn't you say you are studying in the university in Tallahassee?)

Would you say you have a gift for learning languages or did you just study a lot?

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Pasi, if I may ask (because it's relevant here), what is your racial/ethnic background?

Ukrainian, on a good day.

And simply speaking some of the language doesn't mean you have integrated. Did Koreans think of you as one of their own? No. Did you adapt to a truly Korean worldview, and change your perspective of life and society to a Korean one, which is fundamentally different than an American? No. So you ate a lot of Korean food, well guess what! I eat a lot of Lao and Thai food too. Eating the food and speaking the language in and of itself does not make you integrated. They are but two small facets of an overall culture. You were still very much an outsider, and by the way, the vast majority of expats living in Asia associate more with their own than with locals. This is particularly true in the poorer countries, where it is physically impossible to associate with most locals.

Sorry, but my point does not fall flat at all. Thanks for playing though.

 

[Tee Kay]

I'm an immigrant myself and I can say that mastering the language is quite easy. But to fully integrate culturally is a very different matter and it takes years. AFAIK first generation migrants will never be able to act and think totally like the mainstream population, for the simple reason that they are born and bred in another country.