Wanna know why immigrants can't easily integrate?

[Kyriakos]

Most muslim immigrants here are very slowly intergrating. They form ghetto's and speak their native language at first, and then they try free programs where they learn greek, which opens up more opportunities for them.
I definately hope that they will bring more to the country's culture, and not just try to reform to whatever uniformity there supposedly is (ie isnt) in Greece.
Also the new generations have grown with non-greek kids in their classrooms as well, so they are a lot more open to them. When i was at school there were one or two people with non-greek background, in the entire school! So it was pretty much one race, which was dull.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I lived in a tiny village in the Mexican desert for about six months and visited the surrounding cities pretty frequently. Its not exactly an Asian country but it was strange enough. Some of the people there had never even met or seen an American before but just about everyone had friends or family living in the US.

Besides the people talking sh!t to me and making fun of me or asking me why Americans are so racist or what have you, there was all the catholic stuff (I am a pretty anti-religious person). Such as we always drove by some sort of shrine thing on the side of the road and everybody in the car would cross themselves and say a prayer and I'd just sit there looking around. Then I got invited to some sort of Mexican/Catholic ritual thing (I didn't know it was religious, I just went for the food) and I was sitting there in a room with all these girls and women praying and singing to a statue of Mary.

Some of the traditional food and drinks were pretty gross also. My friend wasn't kidding when he told me "Mexicans eat some nasty ass stuff." But most of the stuff was excellent but a little hot. There was even a place that served giant "pizza" burgers.

Dating rituals were weird also. Guys are supposed to walk with a girl on the street side and not the other way around. Otherwise people think the girl is a prostitute or something. Some girls got a little irrated with me because of that.

It was definitely different than what I imagined it. I definitely enjoyed my stay there but I definitely wouldn't want to live there. Well, maybe if I was rich or something.

 

[colontos]

colontos, where do you find all this spare time (plus money to travel)? (Didn't you say you are studying in the university in Tallahassee?)

Would you say you have a gift for learning languages or did you just study a lot?

I study a lot. Language learning is 10% talent and 90% hard, hard work. It wasn't really spare time in Korea, and I didn't need extra money since I was working there. This was before I went to Tallahassee actually.

And simply speaking some of the language doesn't mean you have integrated. Did Koreans think of you as one of their own? No.

No. And they never will, even if I live there all my life, speak the language absolutely perfectly, and wear Korean traditional clothes every day. I will always be looked upon as an outsider, an oddity, because I am white. I would guess that you, also white, experience a similar phenomenon in Laos, but maybe the Laotians are different. I doubt it though.

If your point is that non-whites experience the same in the West, then state your point. Personally I would agree to an extent, though I think this problem is far less severe in the West than in Asia. Wouldn't you agree?

Did you adapt to a truly Korean worldview, and change your perspective of life and society to a Korean one, which is fundamentally different than an American? No.

Do all Koreans have a "truly Korean worldview"? People are people, man. I lived like a Korean. Some Koreans share my views on various things, others do not. Example: Most Koreans hold views on race that make westerners uncomfortable. Should I have adopted those views? Of course not. As an immigrant (sort of) I brought a different perspective, just like any immigrant to America. America does not silence these perspectives. Korea does not either, though it does marginalize them.

So you ate a lot of Korean food, well guess what! I eat a lot of Lao and Thai food too.

And isn't the point of this thread, Pasi, to prove your superiority to "ordinary" westerners?

Eating the food and speaking the language in and of itself does not make you integrated. They are but two small facets of an overall culture. You were still very much an outsider, and by the way, the vast majority of expats living in Asia associate more with their own than with locals.

I was an outsider, again, that was because of my race, something I can do nothing about. Asian xenophobia is not my fault. As I said, I was as integrated as it is possible for a white person to be. Most expats do do as you say, but as I stated, I did not. I only associated with "my own" at work. Outside of work I had only one white friend, and many Korean friends and acquaintances.

Sorry, but my point does not fall flat at all. Thanks for playing though.

But I believe it does, Pasi. Is your point that a white person can not fully integrate into Asian society? That's true, but it's more a result of Asian racialism and xenophobia than of Western laziness (although the latter is a major factor for many; it was not for me). Or is your point that because a white person cannot or do not integrate into Asian society, that immigrants should not have to integrate here? Well, as my example proves, with a little bit of hard work, one can integrate as much as the locals will allow. Also, I've never seen the integration police forcing immigrants to change. The simple fact is that if they do not integrate, they will live in isolation from society, and it will be their own fault. That's fine if that's what they want. But to do the opposite is not impossible, nor especially difficult.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

If your point is that non-whites experience the same in the West, then state your point. Personally I would agree to an extent, though I think this problem is far less severe in the West than in Asia. Wouldn't you agree?

Sure, Asian societies are more traditionally xenophobic than Western societies are, since Western societies (particularly Canada and the United States) are built on immigrants and have for centuries deliberately tried to attract as many as they could to arrive and populate empty lands. My point really is that in foreign countries, white English speaking westerners tend to congregate with one another socially, so why the hell would anyone have a problem with immigrants in the West doing the same? And yes, many people seem to have that problem.

I don't feel the need to address any other part of your post, because everything you posted agreed with me.

 

[Dann]

I am also an expat in a foreign land (Filipino now in China) but the difference is I am also of Chinese ethnicity, and so I can blend in seamlessly among the local populace. Thanks to my prior education, language is not a problem either.

Neither is food. I'm loving the sheer variety available here. Should I crave Western food it is available too, albeit a bit more expensive. What I really miss here is native Filipino food.

There is still, however, a difference in the way I dress, talk, carry myself and other small nuances that make me 'different' from the locals. At first impression most people would guess me to be someone from Hongkong or Taiwan.

Needless to say, I have of course kept my own world view and opinions regarding a lot of things, only making certain concessions in case it is necessary for work or business.

And my circle of friends is an eclectic bunch. They include locals (my girlfriend is in this group), Filipinos (engineers, architects and musicians) and even a white Canadian (architect from a sister company).

 

[Brighteye]

My point really is that in foreign countries, white English speaking westerners tend to congregate with one another socially, so why the hell would anyone have a problem with immigrants in the West doing the same?

Could it be a difference between the reasons for immigration? If the white westerners are there for a few years or months as part of their job, that's very different from having moved there permanently because they want to live in the country.
Even if most of these white westerners are permanent immigrants, it doesn't mean that they represent my opinions. I would happily say that they should integrate too, just as immigrants here should integrate. However, they're not in my country, so what they do is not my business, and they have no way of fully integrating, because their hosts are somewhat racist (apparently).

 

[Winner]

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What do you think? Should a white, English speaking foreigner have to adapt in such circumstances?

Never thought I will ever say that, but you're right.

That's what happens when people from very different culture are unwilling to adapt. Westerners in Asia still think their native culture is superior and they feel they don't belong.

The same applies to many Muslims who came to Europe, and that's why they're a problem.

 

[plarq]

Holding a different culture is just like holding a different belief and system of POVs. In that sense, even the 9/11 hijackers are culturally (partially) American, since they speak English and communicate with their neighbors (White Caucasian Americans maybe), classmates and co-workers, and acted as if they're assimilating. White Caucasian Americans bombed OKC, doesn't make them non-American.

So it is indeed a Hypocrisy if the majority demand minority to "give up" cultures. However, it is not a hypocrisy to demand minority to (at least try to) learn the host language. Since language is only a tool, it doesn't make the new comers "inferior" and the old resident "superior".

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

If you're one of those people who has always wondered why immigrants can't just learn English (or whatever your local language might be) and integrate themselves culturally with the majority in your country, you probably don't understand the experience of being in a foreign land with completely alien customs.

Well, I've got an experiment for you folks to try.

My family, including myself, were immigrants to the US from the Soviet Union and found little trouble assimilating. So your whole post is bull$0it.

 

[aneeshm]

Yet based on my extensive experience, the children try to assimilate even if the parents don't. Remember, one's peers have as large an influence on one's culture as one's parents. The kids want to learn English to be like their friends.

It's really curious how first-generation Muslim immigrants try quite hard to integrate, but their children try to revert to a pan-Islamic identity and cut off cultural ties with their new host nation.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Alright, I admit that my experience isn't with Muslim immigrants though.

 

[Winner]

It's really curious how first-generation Muslim immigrants try quite hard to integrate, but their children try to revert to a pan-Islamic identity and cut off cultural ties with their new host nation.

Whis is kinda unexplained - why they do that? Especially in contrast to Asian kids, who usually tend to blend with the general population, at least where I live.

 

[Technocactus]

On the subject of American culture, I always found the fact that it's such a melting pot to be the beauty of it. In a country like Italy, traditional cusine would be spaghetti, or something else Italian. But Americans, instead of having their own "way", take other cultures and develop them a little. Americanise them. I find it hard to say whether America is more or less cultured than other places, because it has culture of a different kind.

 

[aneeshm]

Whis is kinda unexplained - why they do that? Especially in contrast to Asian kids, who usually tend to blend with the general population, at least where I live.

You've provided the answer yourself, actually. It was one stray sentence of yours which set off a chain of thought which led me to my analysis of cultures. You can find it here.

If you're not mathematically inclined, then just read the non-mathematical sections. I've explained everything in non-mathematical terms suitable for the average reader, and also given a mathematical treatment for those interested. It's quite small, and a lot of the details have to be worked out, but it's a nice start.

 

[Swedishguy]

I have great experience with persian immigrants, as some might've noticed.

Sweden has a great density of immigrants. 1 per 9 citizens are immigrants. Think about that one. And I live in a dense immigrant zone.

 

[Brighteye]

Analysis of cultures:
'the culture to which the agent's...'
should be 'the culture which the agent's...'

and on the same page 'degress' should be 'degrees'

I think that 'bell curve' has no capitals. I'm not sure though. I always call it normal anyway.

I think that you should define culture as consisting of numerous axioms, with each axiom being treated as mathematically separate, and only competing with those that contradict it, except that there is a level of binding between axioms (that we need to define for each relationship) that means that an axiom will compete with those that contradict the axioms to which it is bound.

Finally, I think that there are different strengths in 'cultures'. Something that is durable, or allows greater aggregation of people, is not necessarily fast-spreading, or even competitive against others.

You can then model assimilation by degrees, as the number of axioms from the host and guest cultures that are now prevalent.

Eventually you could write a computer programme that could model all these interactions in a pretty, colourful way, tune it so that it churns out what we're seeing today in various countries, and then become famous for modelling the world.

 

[Urederra]

I quite don't understand when you people say that latinos don't integrate in the USA since in states like Floride Spanish has been spoken for almost 500 years now, much earlier than English.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

The whole situation is pretty simple. As a sort of a rule, the coming generations are usually going to be 'different' from the host culture in terms of norms. Let's take my Polish grandmother, for instance. While I love her deeply, she is incredibly stubborn and believes God will literally kill you if you break a commandment. Nor does she speak a lick of English despite being in New Jersey for twenty years. It's hard, if not impossible to get them to assimilate and 'be like the rest of us'. The only way to truly clear those practices is wait for them to die. Norms don't just wash away like dirt on water, it has to be gradual.
The key to assimilation rather is through getting the new generations within to accept host norms that would eventually cause a 'break' from the old culture. This can be done by making them feel accepted. And when they feel accepted, they'll start feeling more and more like the host culture and different from their parents. But if they're not accepted, then the old culture is staying to stay around a lot longer and assimilation is going to be a lot more difficult.

I'm not saying it's impossible for new immigrants to lose their normative reasoning. But such a thing won't happen if they don't feel accepted and 'valued'. If they aren't accepted (by others), they're going to stick close to their old ways for comfort. Since the fact is they're usually not accepted or valued (they are old, after all) , the best method is to just let them live their life in quiet, wait for them to die, and focus on their children.

 

[colontos]

I quite don't understand when you people say that latinos don't integrate in the USA since in states like Floride Spanish has been spoken for almost 500 years now, much earlier than English.

That's pretty inaccurate. The Spanish speakers here in Florida are all recent immigrants from Cuba, Puerto Rico, Mexico, etc. There was not a constant Spanish presence in Florida. Spanish disappeared from Florida more or less completely, and only in the last 70 years or so has begun a resurgance.

 

[Chieftess]

If you're one of those people who has always wondered why immigrants can't just learn English (or whatever your local language might be) and integrate themselves culturally with the majority in your country, you probably don't understand the experience of being in a foreign land with completely alien customs.

*calls her great-aunt*

Nope, they can integrate easily. My great-aunt was born in Italy, and didn't even know English when she came over at the age of two. My great-grandmother was 14 when she came over from Germany - didn't know English either. Both integrated well - my great-aunt became a teacher (an English teacher, too!). There are people who've immigrated that can integrate easily. Sure, it might be rough going for the first five years, but they still can.