was the zimmerman telegram real?

ybbor

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so we're learning about WWI in my social studies class, and my teacher mentions that the zimmerman telegram didnn't really come from the germany, but the U.S. did it to have an excuse to go to war. It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, like the video taped moo landings, Bush knowing about 9/11, FDR knowing about Pearl Harbor, etc. Granted, i don't know nearly enough about history to make a serious challange. So I have 2 questions, 1) where did the telegram originally come from? 2) what view is commonly accpeted as mainstream?

that 2nd one's intended to make sure i'm not dealong with any conspiracy theorists myself here ;)

thanks in advance? :)
 
It was the final nail in the coffin.

Invasion of neutral countries
Unrestricted Uboat warfare
Bombing of Civilians / Cities

It was widely know that Germany was negosiating with Mexico in order to entice her into the Central alliance. Given both the Entente powers had done with Itay and Central powers to entice Turkey. It is almost certain such a telegram would exsist.
 
Would Mexico really help much? I mean the USA wasn't a huge military power then, but how strong was Mexico..Considering the revolution, and crappy econemy I cant imagine them being very powerful.
 
Germany was going to start unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic. This was the one thing that the Germans saw as bringing the U.S. into the war against them. As a result, Zimmermann wanted to arrange a distraction for Washington. He saw how Pershing and a division of cavalry were fruitlessly running around northern Mexico trying to capture Pancho Villa. Zimmermann could see the entire U.S. Army expending all its energy in Mexico rather than in France.

There is also the point that the Mexican Army wasn't that much smaller than the American Army (the U.S. Army in 1916 was ranked 17th in size, smaller than the Brazilian Army). So Mexico was a viable military threat to the U.S. Also, bringing the Japanese into a war against the U.S. would tie up the U.S. Navy, which was the fourth largest (after the British, German and French navies). Having the U.S. and Mexico (and possibly Japan) involved in a war would have several benefits: (1) It would keep the U.S. from fighting Germany; (2) It would greatly lessen, if not stop, American war material going to Britain and France; and (3) It would distract the American citizens from German atrocities. Of course any initial German military aid to Mexico would be nonexistent, because Britain had an effective naval blockade, but the German Naval Staff (Admiralstab) under von Pohl claimed that unrestricted submarine warfare would cause Britain's surrender in three to six months. Then Germany could provide aid to the Mexicans, using the same free trade arguments that Americans justified sending aid to the Allies.

As for the Zimmermann Telegram being a hoax, the really amazing thing about the whole affair is that when Zimmermann was confronted with the telegram's exposure, he freely admitted that he had written and sent the telegram.
 
How on earth did they intend to bring Japan into a war against the US in support of Germany when Japan was already at war with Germany?:confused:
 
The Japanese were not strongly committed to the Entente side of WWI. Basically, they were in the war to grab some German colonies (the Caroline Islands, Marinas, part of Samoa, the Marshalls, Palau, and Tiensao in China). The German foreign ministry intended to offer the Japanese help in taking Samoa, part of New Guinea, Saipan, Guam and possibly the Philippines. However, negotiations with Japan, through the Japanese embassy in Switzerland, hadn't started when the Zimmermann Telegram was exposed. After that, the Japanese were no longer approachable by the Germans.
 
so it was from the germans? ty. if it isn't too much too ask, could i get some type of source, like one where zimmerman admitted to writting it? it would help a lot. Thanks :)
 
The Zimmermann Telegram by Barbara Tuchman is probably the best book on the subject. Here's a link to the U.S. National Archives which discusses the telegram. The decoded, translated telegram (from the Archives) reads:

We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare. We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal or alliance on the following basis: make war together, make peace together, generous financial support and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. The settlement in detail is left to you. You will inform the President [of Mexico] of the above most secretly as soon as the outbreak of war with the United States of America is certain and add the suggestion that he should, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence and at the same time mediate between Japan and ourselves. Please call the President's attention to the fact that the ruthless employment of our submarines now offers the prospect of compelling England in a few months to make peace. Signed, ZIMMERMANN.​
 
YNCS said:
Germany was going to start unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic. This was the one thing that the Germans saw as bringing the U.S. into the war against them. As a result, Zimmermann wanted to arrange a distraction for Washington. He saw how Pershing and a division of cavalry were fruitlessly running around northern Mexico trying to capture Pancho Villa. Zimmermann could see the entire U.S. Army expending all its energy in Mexico rather than in France.

There is also the point that the Mexican Army wasn't that much smaller than the American Army (the U.S. Army in 1916 was ranked 17th in size, smaller than the Brazilian Army). So Mexico was a viable military threat to the U.S. Also, bringing the Japanese into a war against the U.S. would tie up the U.S. Navy, which was the fourth largest (after the British, German and French navies). Having the U.S. and Mexico (and possibly Japan) involved in a war would have several benefits: (1) It would keep the U.S. from fighting Germany; (2) It would greatly lessen, if not stop, American war material going to Britain and France; and (3) It would distract the American citizens from German atrocities. Of course any initial German military aid to Mexico would be nonexistent, because Britain had an effective naval blockade, but the German Naval Staff (Admiralstab) under von Pohl claimed that unrestricted submarine warfare would cause Britain's surrender in three to six months. Then Germany could provide aid to the Mexicans, using the same free trade arguments that Americans justified sending aid to the Allies.

As for the Zimmermann Telegram being a hoax, the really amazing thing about the whole affair is that when Zimmermann was confronted with the telegram's exposure, he freely admitted that he had written and sent the telegram.


So essentially, two seperate war, that would eventually tie together, like WWII in Asia and Europe?
 
No, two separate wars.

The German Navy predicted that Britain would surrender within six months after German unrestricted submarine warfare was initiated. With Britain out of the war, France would soon follow. While that was going on, the Americans and Mexicans would be fighting their own war, keeping the U.S. occupied and out of the European war. The Germans really didn't care who won the U.S.-Mexican War. They would support the Mexicans but whether the U.S. was larger or smaller after the Second Mexican War was of little concern to Germany in 1916.
 
It was boneheaded enough to be a German diplomatic effort, they had a knack of getting most of the World against them :)
 
so we're learning about WWI in my social studies class, and my teacher mentions that the zimmerman telegram didnn't really come from the germany, but the U.S. did it to have an excuse to go to war. It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, like the video taped moo landings, Bush knowing about 9/11, FDR knowing about Pearl Harbor, etc. Granted, i don't know nearly enough about history to make a serious challange. So I have 2 questions, 1) where did the telegram originally come from? 2) what view is commonly accpeted as mainstream?

that 2nd one's intended to make sure i'm not dealong with any conspiracy theorists myself here.

No conspiracy. The same German rulers (by 1917, effectively a Hindenburg-Ludendorf dictatorship) who brought about the brilliant defeat of Russia and the triumphantalist Treaty of Brest-Litovsk fumbled like rank amateurs with the Americans, bringing them into the war against the Reich. They would spend the whole of 1918, until the war's end in early November, trying to undo their own single and simple acts of stupidity in 1917 that brought the Americans into the war.

Initially, America looked like an easy target and the American government obviously sympathized with the Allies even if it was technically neutral, so the Germans assumed, 'Why not get it over with?' The American army in 1917 was barely 200,000 men total, and they were spread across the U.S. in groups of 1000 here, 5000 there, another 500 over there, etc. To boot, the American Army had barely modernized since its last spectacular efforts in the 1861-65 war, and clearly was not ready for the war of 1914-17, involving millions of men in a battle with modern artillery, machine guns, barbed wire, trenches and etc. The Americans, in their one great imperialist adventure against Spain in 1898, had won but barely, where even the Spanish colonial regiments had modern Mausers with smokeless powder while the Americans had the embarrassing and clumbsy - and dangerous - Krag-Jorgenson rifles still using black powder that left a large blue cloud over each soldier who fired a shot, immediately revealing to the Spaniards where each American soldier was. It was not an impressive record and to Berlin it looked like easy pickings.

However, the Germans, in their arrogance, overlooked a few critical details. While the American Army was in poor condition, the American navy had not been so neglected. Ludendorf declared when told of the American declaration of war that it was no matter; German submarines would ensure that not one American soldier saw Europe. He was wrong; joint American-British and Canadian convoys ensured that not one single American soldier died from a German torpedo or bullet while crossing the Atlantic. Secondly, the American industrial economy was overwhelmingly the world's largest at that point, and putting it openly at the Allies' disposal proved deadly for the Zweites Reich; by the spring of 1918 most of the shells falling on the Germans from French and British, as well as American, artillery were made in the U.S. While Germany scrounged to be able to supply its armies with basic ammunition and equipment in 1918, the Allies' main problems were of how to logistically get the massive amounts of supplies and ammunition arriving in French ports in orderly and priority fashion to the front lines. Finally, the Germans, even overlooking the horrendous condition of the American Army in 1917, seemed to have forgotten that regardless the quality of their equipment or training, the U.S. would be very quickly able to field 2 million soldiers, with another 2 million being available by early 1918. The hold up in getting American soldiers to the front lines was not the numbers of Americans, it was of getting the many Americans trained properly by their British and French allies fast enough to be available and useful for front line duty.

The Germans realized their error and, as I mentioned, their entire effort in 1918 was to end the war before the well-fed, well-equipped and increasingly well-trained Americans could arrive on the front lines in large enough numbers to make their numbers felt.

So, what act of stupidity brought all this on? Some moron in the German Foreign Office got the bright idea of asking the German embassy in Mexico City to feel the Mexicans (and later, Japanese too) out about a possible attack against the U.S. to keep Washington distracted from Europe, in exchange for which the Mexicans would receive back the lost territories from the 1846-48 war.

This sounds simple, but it actually has a lot of very basic problems.

First: To begin with, Mexico in 1917 was kind of like Lebanon in the 1980s, or Afghanistan. Mexico had erupted into revolution in 1911 and suffered several repeats over the next few years, while several little civil wars raged throughout the Mexican countryside. The Mexican "government" in Mexico City, though it had international recognition, barely controlled much outsaide of Mexico City. (BTW, I recommend the 2003 film with Antonio Banderas, And Starring Poncho Villa as Himself for a glimpse of this period of Mexican history.) In short, Mexico was in no condition to rule itself in 1917 much less attack the United States. Remember that Germany went to war with the U.S. over this idiotic little piece of diplomacy....

Secondly, to send this telegram asking about this little fantasy adventure, the Germans had to do two things: To avoid direct culpability (more on this one later), the Germans sent the telegram through the Swedish embassy's (in Berlin) telegraph. (Sweden, although neutral in World War I, was very pro-German.) What this did was make it easier for the Americans to read the telegram because, well, quite frankly, what was Sweden (as opposed to Germany) going to do if the U.S. got caught reading Swedish diplomatic transmissions? It gave the espionage-squeamish Americans of 1917 an easy way to overcome their fear of losing the moral high ground by breaking diplomatic protocol with a great power.

Thirdly, to send this telegram, no matter what European embassy it was sent from, the Germans had to use the one and only trans-Atlantic telegraph cable that existed in 1917 - the one built, owned and operated by the Americans. Actually reading the telegram was not a problem at all on the technical front for the Americans. Think about that for a minute - the Germans had sent a screaming-red diplomatically dangerous telegram to a country embroiled in a civil war on a cable owned and operated by the country the Germans were proposing to have attacked.

The British had cracked the telegram, showed it to the Americans who, just to save some face, cracked and re-read it themselves (as Zimmerman sent follow-up telegrams like, "Did you get my last telegram? You know, the one where I suggested we try to have the Mexicans and Japanese attack the United States? That one? Well?"

FINALLY - and you haven't seen the dumbest part yet until now - here comes the absolute finale: U.S. President Wilson really did not want to get involved in this war, and he gave the Germans a chance to cover for themselves. He publically announced the telegram's existance, and asked - publically - if the Germans had really meant for all this to happen, if they had really sent this telegram - and all Berlin had to say was no, some low-level bureaucrat fanatic had sent it by mistake and we've since fired him, or something along those lines - but, no; Hindenburg and Ludendorf said, "Yes, we did send that telegram. Yes, we did try to provoke a war with the United States. Yup - it was us all right." The Germans confessed publically to trying to stage an unprovoked war against a hitherto-uninvolved country. Members of the U.S. Congress who wanted to enter the war screamed with glee and practically sent flowers to the Kaiser for Germany's stupidity, because Wilson now had no choice but to declare war.

Why did the Germans do this? This is one of those historical questions that gets beat around alot. In my narrative so far I've been having fun by portraying the German leadership as stupid but in reality of course there were deeper issues. The Germans of 1917, having just knocked Russia out of the war and seeing, as I described, a decrepit American Army, probably saw little danger in provoking the Americans and probably thought they could transfer their eastern armies to the Western front in time to sieze Paris and - theoretically - end the war before the Americans could do much of anything. Berlin was about to re-launch its unrestricted submarine warfare program, and as Ludendorf illustrated the Germans really believed that would solve the American-soldiers-and-supplies-flooding-Europe problem. However, as I described in my first paragraph the Germans seriously underestimated many facets of any American contribution to an Allied war effort, and the ultimate proof lies in the fact that the Germans lost the war in 1918 long before the Americans really were able to make any meaningful military contribution on the land. Most of the crucial fighting of 1918 on the Allied side was done by the British and French. Any real American land-force impact would probably only have been felt if the war dragged on into 1919 - but the Reichswehr broke in September and October 1918, and would not survive to see any significant American army impact. It would be the French and British who would break the Kaiser's armies.

Before any Americans have a histy-fit; relax. Those Americans who did fight in 1917 and 1918 did so valiantly, and at a few junctions - Belleau Wood and Chateau Thierry in particular - American units played crucial roles. But overall, the American land effort in 1918 was piece-meal, and very limited. When the Americans did finally get their own front with the St. Mihiel offensive, they fought bravely but clearly were still inexperienced and made some costly mistakes, getting bogged down easily. They did make progress and, as I mentioned, if they'd had another several months would no doubt have become the spearhead of the Allied war effort but as it was, Germany crumbled before that time came. In fact, some modern historians - with the safety of distance in time - have speculated whether a German hold-out for another six months, resulting in an Allied thrust deep into the Ruhr or even further, might not have convinced the Germans they'd really lost the war and prevented World War II - but that is pure speculation and ignores the utter exhaustion of all sides (except the Americans) fighting in 1918.

So there you have it. German arrogance provoked and brought against them, at a time when they were celebrating having just removed a formidible foe from the war, an even greater threat which would lead to their ultimate defeat. In early 1917 German war planners were drooling over the prospects for victory they saw in Western Europe and Berlin filled with talk of what the post-war (German-dominated) European order would be like - but in a few short months all those plans would be blown apart by incredibly poor planning from soldiers, bureaucrats and politicians who should have known better.
 
As Vrylakas showed, the Germans appeared to have lost touch with reality with the Zimmermann Telegram. During the last year of the war, the German government and high command (the same thing, really) demonstrated they didn't understand their enemies. As late as September 15, 1918, Erich Ludendorff, the Chief of Staff of the German Army, considered that Germany's suffering throughout the war had been such that no other country would refuse her right to occupy Belgium to give Germany full control of the Flemish coast. He believed that the King of Belgium and the Belgian people would see the necessity for the city and fortress of Liège becoming an inalienable German possession.
 
The Zimmerman Telegram did not ask for Mexico to immediately declare war on the US; it merely asked it to invade the US if the US and Germany declared war on each other and promised the land lost in the Mexican-American War as a reward.
 
Sims2789 said:
The Zimmerman Telegram did not ask for Mexico to immediately declare war on the US; it merely asked it to invade the US if the US and Germany declared war on each other and promised the land lost in the Mexican-American War as a reward.
Bingo ;).

The Zimmerman Telegram is infact real. I even used it as my primary source for my essay in US History II class (Its a college level course :p)
 
Hindenburg and Ludendorff are indeed the incarnation of the most devastating German traits. Prussian militarism at its worst, anti-democratic, undiplomatic, completely out of touch with reality - the typical Junker. Capable soldiers, though. FWIW.

IMHO they are nearly single-handedly responsible for the downfall of the Kaiserreich (not necessarily a bad thing), and for that Austrian gaining power later, resulting in the ultimate downfall...

Let's not forgot, in the 1923 Munich beer hall putsch (a interesting name btw, in Germany it is hardly ever called that way, but "March on the Feldherrenhalle") Hitler was the man behind - but hardly know to anyone.
Ludendorff OTOH was as prominent as someone could be. Without him, quite likely Hitler's movement would have ended like all those other ultra-nationalistic groups; in the worst case, kill a democratic politician like Erzberger or Rathenau, and fade away.
Of course, Erich also was a NSDAP Reichstag member 1924-28. Went almost completely nuts after that.

Interestingly, he was a candidate in the 1925 presidential elections (a desaster, 1.1% of all votes). Surprisingly, those elections were won by no one else but Hindenburg later (note Ludendorff was only in the first voting, Hindenburg became canditade for the second round; so they never competed directly).

Hindenburg, oh well; at least he "only" was an incompetent politician, ultra-conservative, monarchistic. But unlike Ludendorf, I wouldn't call him malevolent.
Still, he is responisible for Hitler's inthronisation. Ok, in 1932 he was completely senile, and everyone knew that; but his installation of Brüning as chancellor in 1930 was the deathblow to the Weimar democracy, since from that moment the parlament became meaningless. And from Brüning to von Papen to Hitler is only a graduate difference...

Wilhelm II is often blamed for the war and the brilliant politics of that time, but in fact, while he was a childish navy and uniform fanatic, he wasn't really keen on a bloody war, and compered to lots of other rulers of that time (like Tzar Nicolaus), he wasn't even a dumbass.

The Zimmerman telegram, inventing the 'Dolchstoßlegende', the desasters of the German army on the western front, beer hall putsch, installing von Papen and Hitler...you really have to wonder what an amount of responsibilty those two hold.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
Wilhelm II is often blamed for the war and the brilliant politics of that time, but in fact, while he was a childish navy and uniform fanatic, he wasn't really keen on a bloody war, and compered to lots of other rulers of that time (like Tzar Nicolaus), he wasn't even a dumbass.
While Wilhelm was smarter than Nicholas (most people were smarter than Nicholas), he had some terrible lapses. Bismarck worked hard to get a treaty with Russia (the Reinsurance Treaty) so that if France attacked Germany, Russia would stay neutral, and if Austria attacked Russia, Germany would stay neutral. Essentially, Germany wouldn't have to worry about a two-front war if she got into a war with France. Wilhelm wasn't concerned about the possibility, and so let the treaty lapse in 1892. Russia, worried about Austria, then signed a mutual defense pact with France (the Double Entente) in 1894 and when World War I broke out, Germany had to fight a two front war.

The rest of your post is interesting reading. Thank you for writing it.
 
An interesting book on four of the leading military men in World War I is Correlli Barnett's The Swordbearers: Supreme Command in the First World War. Barnett assesses the characters of four supreme commanders: Generaloberst Helmuth von Moltke, Admiral Sir John Jellicoe, General Philippe Pétain, and General Erich Ludendorff. Moltke was the German Commander-in-Chief at the outbreak of the War, and suffered a nervous breakdown due to Wilhelm's vacillation. Jellicoe, Commander of the Grand Fleet, was "the only man who can lose the war in an afternoon." Pétain took command of the French army in 1917, when morale was so low that half the army was mutinous, and was able to fix most of the problems. Ludendorff, the de facto German supreme commander in 1918, personified the restless, driving qualities of modern Germany, combined with a fatal lack of wisdom. I recommend the book highly.
 
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