Water instead of Food

Is it just the graphics that bother you about the clumped water resources or you just don't like them being clumped?

Mostly the graphic, but it also feels a little weird geology-wise (an aquifer on one tile is really drawing water from a large surrounding area) and also potentially balance-wise; if you can have clusters of water, then those can really become a super-city, while areas without aquifers are useless.
Also, the map looks a bit strange with bright blue aquifers all over the map.

The bigger issue is the variance in tile yields for cities across the map, the weaker the AI tends to be and the bigger the variation in AI performance.
In vanilla, cities with bonus food tiles are good spots for cities and will get settled first, but even locations without any bonus resources can still end up being very respectable cities (especially if they're on rivers).

What do you think about having some buildings that provide +food (ie water), so that the city size and growth of a particular town is not directly hardcapped by the map generation script (since there is no human choice about making the city bigger by building more farms)?
 
@david: Can you remember what numbers you used with the iAIObjective tag for bonuses - there doesn't seem to be much information around...
 
So if you pump up the economy and start seeing this crash, you cannot get the actual commerce data, but you can assume it is high enough.

Just had this exact thing happen with my Water for Food v2 release candidate. Some things may need toning down a bit and I'm sure it needs further refinement, but I can let you have it all later today hopefully.
 
cephalo said:
I just wanna ask, do we know anything about aquifers on Dune? Whatever we do, it has to be in the books right?

Not at all. This is a game inspired by the books. Playable and fun is more important than authenticity. Just don't get us started about that Weirding Module from the 1984 movie :-)

Just had this exact thing happen with my Water for Food v2 release candidate. Some things may need toning down a bit and I'm sure it needs further refinement, but I can let you have it all later today hopefully.

Well, the quick solution to that crash is remove the Medium Hover unit and its associated unitclass and reference in civilizationinfos, in case it is getting in your way.
 
I just wanna ask, do we know anything about aquifers on Dune? Whatever we do, it has to be in the books right?

Well, there's water under the ground for sure, and talk about qanats which are sort of sophisticated well systems. I think it's fair to input of what we know about Earth's deserts. Playing with my changes it feels much more like an alien, desert planet than before...
 
hey guys,

ill bring up an idea i had when i started the mod,

i was looking also to make some sort of a water source,

ther is the rivers - currentkly disabled - but imagine this,
instead of rivers on the map,
youll have - water resourviours - or something like this - that wont be placed like a river, and wont be as long - it will be as a round art thingy.

if you gonna use the water resource somehow -
why not turn it nto a featur? instead of the forest/mushrooms?
 
I think reservoirs should be created by play (probably as city improvements; makes sense as a granary substitute) rather than a map feature; I think reservoir has connotations of an anthropogenic source (unlike aquifer, which is basically a natural underground reservoir), it doesn't make much sense for them to exist naturally.

That boardgame though reminded me of the polar sink though, which I think *does* have real water sources. Is there any way to increase the water resources in polar regions, or create some new terrain type that naturally provides water but only gets created by the map script in polar regions? Basically something like tundra/ice that has a natural +1 water +1 hammer tile yield. Would be cool to encourage settlement in clusters around the poles.

Another point; if you remove water from all non-bonus terrain, then you the grassland replacement provides nothing while the plains replacement provides 1 hammer; why not change the grassland into +1 commerce, to distinguish it from deserts?
 
One of the original motivations of this Water for Food idea was so that cephalo can model the water rich terrain in the polar region.

Another point; if you remove water from all non-bonus terrain, then you the grassland replacement provides nothing while the plains replacement provides 1 hammer; why not change the grassland into +1 commerce, to distinguish it from deserts?

Good idea. I'll do this.
 
That boardgame though reminded me of the polar sink though, which I think *does* have real water sources. Is there any way to increase the water resources in polar regions, or create some new terrain type that naturally provides water but only gets created by the map script in polar regions? Basically something like tundra/ice that has a natural +1 water +1 hammer tile yield. Would be cool to encourage settlement in clusters around the poles.

I'm working on it! I want to make it look really nice though so I'm playing with some SDK modifications.
 
Water for Food - version 2

Changes from the previous Water for Food test:

+ Renamed Aquifer to Groundwater. This is just to make the grammar make sense, Groundwater works as both the location of the resource and the substance that the resource produces.

+ Groundwater produces no tile yield change unimproved.

+ There are three new improvements that can only be built on Groundwater:
Shallow Well - buildable immediately - +5 water +1 commerce.
Deep Well - available at Climate Control - +8 water +2 commerce
Qanat Network - available at Desert Industry - +11 water +3 commerce
(Names and Techs open to change)

+ The different Well graphics are placeholder - using some Drauga buildings from Walter Hawkwood's Fantasy Pack.

+ Groundwater uses iUnique so that it does not occur on two adjacent tiles - in reality a well would drain water from a large surrounding area of aquifer.

Spoiler :
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+ Dew Plants - Sand Verbana, Burro Weed, Spiked Paintbush, Sword Grass, Creosote, Barrel Cactus all produce +1 water from dew unimproved.

+ Replaced Enclosure with Dew Collectors improvement, adds +2 water +1 commerce to the Dew Plants. The Dew Plants all produce +1 happy +1 health right now but we can vary this for interest.

+ Wind Trap reduced to +2 water from +3.

+ Made base tile produce +3 water. With it producing +2 water there is no way to get more than +3 water from your initial settlement. This meant the first few turns were a bit slow - if people don't like then we can get rid of it.

+ Arid produces only +1 hammer. Desert Plains produces +1 hammer +1 commerce. This was a late change just to make them different.

+ Bonus placement totally reworked. This will need further tuning no doubt, but the game feels like it is in a playable state now. I think we should probably replace Fogwood and Shigawire which are not native to Arrakis. Also having Burro Bush as well as Burro Weed seems confusing.

+ iAIObjective set to 1 for Groundwater. Definitely seems to make a difference - the AI seems more willing to cross the sand sea and settle islands with this switched on. With the worm fear fix in place it will be really interesting to see what happens.

+ I have tested and if anything I think I may have overcompensated for the previous commerce shortfall. Still it's a nice problem to have if so - we can pick which settings to scale back. The AI does build Deep Wells to replace the Shallow Wells when the relevant tech becomes available.

Probably I've missed some things, but I'm sure someone will notice and feedback. This will need ongoing refinement but hopefully people will like it. :)

If you think there are issues with resource distribution then try to pick out general patterns over a number of games/maps. The random nature of it will still dish out the odd awesome start and crappy start. That has always been Civ though. Even in my straight 1.2.2 test, one civ has 1 city after 250 turns...

Loose Ends

While I hope this change is now good enough to merge back into the main mod there are a couple of loose ends.
+ It would be good if both windtraps and wells can be fresh water sources in a 1 tile radius. Drip farms can then be built on any terrain that has fresh water. This makes it possible to get some water from waterless tiles.
+ I've not renamed all the Food Silo, Food Warehouse buildings to Catchbasin, Reservoir, etc. We should do this.

Future Stuff and Ideas

+ Add some water related city buildings e.g.
- Ornamental Gardens - negative water, positive happiness
- Teachings of Liet (wonder? Sietch Tabr UB?) - some positive water impact
- Power stations/factories cost water

+ Koma said he would do some water related city screen work ;)

+ Maybe link water into the terraforming ideas - I had an idea that when you pass the Three Percent Threshold you start getting Sirocco winds that move around like sandstorms. When these pass over your windtraps you get extra water. Also could you divert some of your water income into a terraforming fund somehow - then collecting water takes you closer to a Terraforming victory.
 
I need some advice on how many different versions / patches we should have. I have just spent the last two hours undoing the map effect I added. I now have something working which uses koma's "ignore danger" patch but still keeps all the other 1.2.3 changes. I should test that to make sure it is actually working.

In parallel, we have keldath's PM to me that he is working on a new sdk with a couple of unrelated bug fixes, and also we have the water as food stuff.

I can take a few hours to try merging the water as food stuff into my changes and release *that* as 1.2.4. What do you think? It is piling a bunch of big changes together, but maybe it is better to merge immediately.

Keldath, will you have a new dll in a few hours which includes koma's "ignore danger" plus your own stuff? I can drop that into 1.2.4.
 
I reckon keep copies of all the separate code and then go for the merge. There will inevitably be some teething issues, but the sooner we do it, the sooner we can start refining.
 
yes ive been meaning to send you david a pm,

hold on on the merging of yours -

i have built a patch with:

deliverator new atwer code
koma13's new code
my fix+unit addition

ill post in 30 minutes.

deliverator,
id appreciate if you can check out the patch when i upload it - cause you worked on a version previous to patch 1.23 -
so in the bonusinfo - i didnt know which terrain boolians you changed - so i based them on those in patch 1.2.3. and left all the bonus tweaks you made.
in fact it wouldnt heart if you go through the files youve changed compared to my merge.


thanks - great work - i really like this new water system.


im just running a quick ai game to make sure everything is working.
so dar so good,

gimmie 30 minutes

p.s
deliverator - wont removing the rice will cause some python errors?
 
There are only 8 contradicting files between 1.2.3 and water patch 2. Let me have a go at merging them for two hours. It should be doable. The sooner we get to a single code base, the sooner the pain will be over.

Once the code stabilizes a little, then we can rename everything. Renaming RICE to AQUIFER is one step in the right direction, but it will require a short program which I can write, to mass-rename everything.
 
wait for my patch david,
then check out the merged ive done, the patch is stable - uploading now.


pehaps we need a thread for beta versions - so every new work we do we upload there so there will be an order in our multiple uploads :).



yes - renaming is something i wanted for a long time - but its tons of work...


ok - heres the patch this is build on the new patch 1.2.3 availble on the download thread :

http://ul.to/nzp3tq

it includes:

1. koma13 new changes of added sdk code
2. deliverator water system
3. fix from revdcm 2.5 - sdk
4. added unit: battle mech -
a super world unit - that costs money aswell as hammers (using a dorment sdk code i built on revdcm 2.5)
ill add a upkeep value later - i forgot...
5. reduced peak height


***
edit:
damn - i wanted to include a new art set for the to cottage-town... but i forgot...
also i wann replace the green house art - its ugly...:)

have fun,
im going to shower now :)
 
Loose Ends

While I hope this change is now good enough to merge back into the main mod there are a couple of loose ends.
+ It would be good if both windtraps and wells can be fresh water sources in a 1 tile radius. Drip farms can then be built on any terrain that has fresh water. This makes it possible to get some water from waterless tiles.

How important is the 'fresh water' mechanic to this mod?
 
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