[We the People] Bug reporting

[ConjurerDragon]

I don't suppose you have a savegame where this happens consistently? The error is reported in a line with multiple function calls and it doesn't say which function of what went wrong.

Also did you use world builder at some point?

No, the error is not consistent or reproducable. Reloading a savegame a few turns before the error and playing on did not produce the same error again.
Yes, I did use WB in that game, e.g. to move some bonus resources to a different place and to add 3 minor rivers (Delaware, James River and Potomac).

 

[Derek Brown]

There is a movement bug where when you previously grouped a bunch of units and then you just select one, the others that were previously grouped will move with it. I've seen this for all types of units. Doesn't seem to happen every time but pretty often.

 

[nci]

I believe this calls for an investigation.

 

[raystuttgart]

I believe this calls for an investigation.

Can you please explain what the issue is?
From the picture alone I do not understand ...

 

[nci]

@raystuttgart the game just started, but for whatever reason Johan Risingh already has 4x 5x Caravels! I believe it is connected to the ruins nearby, a Swedish colony might have been raised by the natives.

I've attached an archive with turnly autosaves.

 

[raystuttgart]

... , but for whatever reason Johan Risingh already has 4x 5x Caravels!

I may explain that:
(The most likely explanation.)

1. A Swedish Ship drops of its Settler near a Protected Goody ("Hostile Native Village" or a "Raider's Camp").
2. But for some stupid reason that Swedish Ship does not drop of its "Soldier" at the same place.
--> Unprotected Settler without Soldier.

3. Then that stupid Settler decides for some reason to found a Settlement next to the Protected Goody.
4. By doing so, the Hostile Units peviously protecting the Protected Goody get set free.
--> Unprotected Settlement without Soldier with Hostiles next to it.

5. The Hostile Units now raid the Swedish Settlement.
--> Swedish are now without Settlement / Settler.

6. Logic triggers that the Swedish King grants the Swedish an additional Ship with Starting Units (also causing Tax Increase)

---------

Summary:

AI having several Ships at the beginning of the game is very much possible if the "Starting Settler" gets killed several times.
(Each time the King will grant new "Starting Units" including a Ship. In exchange for a tax increase.)

Comment:

Yes AI should not found a Settlement next to a Hostile Goody / Hostile Units. (Usually it also does not do that but sometimes it does.)
And yes, it should never be stupid enough to leave its Settler / Settlement undefended. (Usually it also does not do that but sometimes it does.)

-----

There are many possible solutions (or at least workarounds) for this actually.
Best solution is probably:

1. Delay spawning of Hostile Units on Protected Goodies for e.g. 10 turns.
2. Reduce the amount of Protected Goodies being spawned.
3. Teach AI that it is not a good idea to found unprotected Settlements next to Protected Goodies ("Found Value Logic" of Plots)

 

[nci]

@raystuttgart 2x Caravels at game start are OK, but 5x total Caravels at turn 36 are, I dare say, game-breaking. These Caravels will completely ruin naval exploration for all other players.

3. Teach AI that it is not a good idea to found unprotected Settlements next to Protected Goodies ("Found Value Logic" of Plots)

I've never seen AI found a settlement near protected goodies. If AI settler sees an enemy, they normally retreat, then come back in hopes the issue is resolved. The cycle repeats until goodie protectors are gone.

The behaviour for first settlement may be different, though...

 

[raystuttgart]

@raystuttgart 2x Caravels at game start are OK, but 5x ...

I never said that this was good.

I just tried to explain how it could have happened.
And I also tried to explain how it could be solved (if my explanation is correct).

Mostly because I am taking 2 months of "summer break" right now.
(Thus I thought I would give the other modders some hints.)

As I said, it should and could be solved.

Best solution is probably:

 

[Nightinggale]

Yes, I did use WB in that game, e.g. to move some bonus resources to a different place and to add 3 minor rivers (Delaware, James River and Potomac).

Since you didn't add/remove units, then I have no good explanation to what happened. Sadly I do not have a usable lead to what went wrong, hence fixing it given the currently available information seems impossible. The code in question is well tested code meaning it works most of the time. Seems pointless for me to test this as it will likely just work. There is something more to this than just running the code.

There is a movement bug where when you previously grouped a bunch of units and then you just select one, the others that were previously grouped will move with it. I've seen this for all types of units. Doesn't seem to happen every time but pretty often.

I do not like the user interface to selection groups. It seems to be too hard to easily control what you want to do. However it's not trivial to fix.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
Summary:

AI having several Ships at the beginning of the game is very much possible if the "Starting Settler" gets killed several times.
(Each time the King will grant new "Starting Units" including a Ship. In exchange for a tax increase.)

Comment:

Yes AI should not found a Settlement next to a Hostile Goody / Hostile Units. (Usually it also does not do that but sometimes it does.)
And yes, it should never be stupid enough to leave its Settler / Settlement undefended. (Usually it also does not do that but sometimes it does.)

-----

There are many possible solutions (or at least workarounds) for this actually.
Best solution is probably:

1. Delay spawning of Hostile Units on Protected Goodies for e.g. 10 turns.
2. Reduce the amount of Protected Goodies being spawned.
3. Teach AI that it is not a good idea to found unprotected Settlements next to Protected Goodies ("Found Value Logic" of Plots)

I dislike 2 because I like to search out those goodies and no amount of reducing them would guarantee that the AI won´t just settle near one anyway even if it is rarer. Please leave the number of goodies as is.

Would those be possible too?
4) If only part of the starting units is killed (e.g. starting units Caravel, Settler, Soldier) then not a full package of them is granted but only the killed unit. If the AI still has a Caravel and a soldier then it just has to get the new settler from Europe.
5) If a city is founded then exclude the area with the protected goodie from the city/culture area so that the AI does not have access to that unit in the city screen and the goody is not triggered simply by a city being founded.

 

[nci]

@raystuttgart @ConjurerDragon I believe best the only acceptable option is number 3. It will take time and effort, though - and after giving it some thought I believe we best leave it as is until someone steps up to correct the settler logic, because the probability of this turn of events is extremely rare, while all other ways to resolve this will do more harm than good.

 

[raystuttgart]

3. Teach AI that it is not a good idea to found unprotected Settlements next to Protected Goodies ("Found Value Logic" of Plots)

Ok, I will implement this and share it with @Nightinggale so he can integrate it to WTP core mod.
(Promised to still support with bugfixes during my "summer break" and will thus do so.)

@Nightinggale, @nci
This is implemented and commited now.
AI now consideres "Protected Goodies" much better when founding its Cities.

 

[pichulo_]

for a player its easy to exploit this and get a lot of free colonists by deleting the starting settler then going to europe screen and changing profession from settler to colonist

 

[raystuttgart]

for a player its easy to exploit this and get a lot of free colonists by deleting the starting settler then going to europe screen and changing profession from settler to colonist

Well, if you are happy getting all the tax increases.
Go ahead and do so, but you will ruin your late game.

 

[pichulo_]

true but still it's quite a big exploit since you can just put all of them to produce bells among other things lol.. you can also go over 100% tax rate which i find hilarious

 

[raystuttgart]

true but still it's quite a big exploit since you can just put all of them to produce bells among other things lol ...

True, but we needed to prevent an "instant game over" - which this simply does.

If a player choses to exploit it on purpose, well he me may do so.
He could also simply open Worldbuilder and give himself a few free settlers if he choses.

I simply have no issue with it.
(As I said, he will ruin his lategame because of taxes.)

 

[Nightinggale]

true but still it's quite a big exploit since you can just put all of them to produce bells among other things lol.. you can also go over 100% tax rate which i find hilarious

Sounds reasonable. During the 1970s taxes were (as always) a hugely debated topic in Sweden. Rich people claimed to pay too much and other people claimed rich people didn't want to pay their fair share. The hot topic was that the higher the income, the higher the percentage should be paid. Astrid Lindgren went on TV and showed her tax returns, which showed an income tax of 102%. Nobody could find good arguments for making more than 100% reasonable and the whole tax system was reformed.

In other words taxes exceeding 100% isn't as unrealistic as we would like to think. However we should consider gameplay value and I do believe that there is a max tax rate setting. I thought it was 60%, but if you say you can end up more than 100%, then either it was changed or something ignores the setting.

 

[raystuttgart]

I thought it was 60%, but if you say you can end up more than 100%, then either it was changed or something ignores the setting.

The 60% "Max Tax Rate" normally only accounts for the DLL-Diplomacy Dialogues with the King.
(All of them where he might increase taxes check for that.)

Other logics like "Respawning Starting Units" do not, beause it was never considered that this could happen in "late game".
In this case it also only happens because of actively trying to exploit the system to get "Free Settlers" - which is not normal gameplay.

It is not necessarily a bug in my opinion.
Again, it is just a consequence of purposely trying to exploit a system to its limits.

 

[nci]

Already fixed internally.
The fix is simply not published yet.

It depends on the "Type of Ship" and if it can transport Units or not.
(E.g. a Privateer may not.)

Is there a way for me to obtain this fix and apply to 3.0.1 release myself? I'm having a Col4 WTP hotseat session with friends this weekend, and lack of this rather obvious bug would greatly benefit their first-time impression of the mod...

 

[raystuttgart]

Is there a way for me to obtain this fix and apply to 3.0.1 release myself?

@Nightinggale
Isn't that fix in branch "develop"?
I am not sure about the current status.